Isn’t all Christianity exploitative? That would be the view of many who’ve never had contact with this curious religion but as one who’s been on the inside, I can definitively say there are bright sides and darker sides to Christianity. Some of the most wonderful people I have met and observed have ... Continue reading »
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Wow. That is such manipulation. God is not a liar, that’s for sure, but he never said you have to buy your healing.
The only good thing about this message is that it is not stealthy, but is blatant – if you don’t tithe, God won’t heal you or answer your prayers.
Completely NOT what Jesus teaches.
I agree with everything he said. He backs everything up with scripture through out the entire message. I went to his church website and listened to the entire message my self and you’re taking a 3 min. 26 sec. tidbit and making of it what you want to. Thats manipulation. Put the entire message on there and let people decide instead of trying to have people hear only what you want them to. Who’s manipulating who, huh!?
This message IS COMPLETELY WHAT JESUS TEACHES.
Doesn’t the bible encouraging drinking, getting drunk and falling down? Scripture says that in Jeremiah chapter 25. I must do it then because it’s backed up with scripture. *applies brain*.
Stymonhawk – you have to be kidding. That is the either the most amateurish exegesis of scripture – or it is one of the most deceitful.
Rather than insisting that people bring the whole tithe into the storehouse – lest they are robbing God … he should insist that people read the entire Book of Malachi to find out who the real God robbers are …
and surprise, surprise – it again turns out to be the religious leaders!
When Jesus was ministering, he healed whoever asked him. He didn’t wait for them to become ‘good’ people, or make a donation.
Jesus alive today is the same Person. His teaching has not changed. It is now as it was then – God will answer our prayers when we seek Him in faith. We are not required to jump through any hoops.
I think that ‘doing things’ helps people feel that they are more deserving of God’s answers. To grasp that we can’t _do_ anything, that we don’t ‘deserve’ anything, but that God loves us even beyond the love we ourselves experience for our own children, and _wants_ to give us good things and for us to walk in love together – that is the foundation for a transforming relationship with Him.
Giving cam be a response to God, a way for us to express love and compassion for others. It enhances our relationship with God; it is an expression of that relationship. But it is never, ever to change that relationship into one of buying a service, or earning what God already freely gives. Our relationship with our father is built on love, not on some religious form of commerce.
Let me ask you this, if the Bible states that giving 10% of your income as a tithe to God and you only give whatevers in your pocket but you darn well know that it’s not close to 10% then aren’t you robbing God of what he says is his? If you can’t understand that the period at the end of a sentence means there isn’t room for excuses or “but God” or “I know but if”. A period at the end of a sentence means that it. No excuses for why people don’t pay their whole tithe. God’s not a respector of persons but he’s also not going to reward those who don’t follow his word. “God heal me please. I know I don’t tithe or follow your word but please heal me.” Sound like a lot of Quote Unquote Christians I know.
Hello, I’m the sheriff ’round these parts.
The reason why I posted Scott Ochsner’s video without my own additional remarks was because I thought it was self-evident that it was BS.
Obviously not.
So, here’s the point-by-point refutation of the pastor’s private fantasy.
BS: “The reason why [your sickness] is still there, is because you’re not faithful in your tithes”
Firstly, it should be remembered that the pastor is talking to sick people, that is, people who are not well.
I wouldn’t talk to my dog like that, let alone a person who was ill.
But to suggest that sickness is related to an ancient food (not money) donation system in Israel – declared obsolete in Hebrews http://groupsects.wordpress.com/2009/02/24/why-tithing-is-obsolete/ – is nothing more than superstition, akin to the fear of the number 13.
BS:”When you start tithing, your sickness and disease will go away.”
A ridiculous assertion.
It should be pointed out that when faithful tithers die, they are then unable to testify that the tithing-brings-healing teaching didn’t work.
Those for whom tithing does not bring healing, but are still alive, are strung along by being made to believe that there healing is imminent (until they die of course, and can’t then testify that Pastor BS was full of Ochsner)
BS: “..because then you’re not underneath the curse no more ..because isn’t disease underneath the curse?”
No. Jesus was put underneath the curse for our transgressions. We can no longer be cursed. To suggest that we can be under a curse is superstition, contradicted by the bible.(“The Messiah redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us. For it is written, “A curse on everyone who is hung on a tree!” Galatians 3:13)
Pastor BS states the tithe was 10%. The tithes of food for the ancient storehouse (which was destroyed in AD70) were more than 3 times that in total (taking into account different tithes). Again, the tithe was only ever food, and declared by Hebrews to be obsolete.
BS:”….That there may be food in my house..that you will never have to do fish fries …chicken dinners..ever again.
If I have to point out that this is not in the bible, then the followers of Pastor BS have much greater problems than I imagined.
BS: “‘Cause you know when people are giving their tithing, you’ve got plenty of money…”
No, people are ‘tithing’, then the pastor has plenty of your money.
BS: Do you realise, God never, never,never,never,never,never,never,never,never,never,never,never,never,never,never,never,never,never,never,meant the church of Jesus Christ to be a charity?”
I’m not sure where I start with this. There’s God’s desire for the widows and the orphans to be taken care of. Paul’s call for a special collection to be taken up for the community in Jerusalem. Jesus directing believers to give people more clothes than they try and take from believers…etc.
BS:”but it is to be the most prosperous entity in the world…”
The bible’s actual message is for people to not worry about money and riches at all, and that God will look after their needs (not their ‘wants’)
BS: “Well, why is it struggling? Because 95% of the people are not tithing and returning to God what is his.”
A number Pastor BS pulled out of his arse.
The whole point of the New Testament is that God, through Christ, gives us (sinners) the grace (undeserved favour) that we don’t deserve.
I feel sorry that you’ve been brainwashed by your false teacher, who, by the way, is an arrogant shit.
“Sound like a lot of Quote Unquote Christians I know.”
So is it necessary to tithe to be saved?
Just one question, then I’ll let you feel good about yourself like most churches do for most people instead of preaching the True Word of God. How do you think a church is ran. I don’t think the electric company is sitting around say, “It’s a church so we’ll not charge them”. Wait, I have a good one, “Oh your the Pastor. We’ll just give this building to you for free. We’ll forget you even had to pay for it.” Come on, no one ever said that He’s asking for money like a charity. You guys really need to get into the word and come to realize that running a church isn’t FREE. Sounds like someone is feeling conviction about not being a tither. Stings doesn’t it! Keep making excuses for yourself though, maybe it’ll get you somewhere someday. By the way, he’s not arrogant. He’s confident in who his God is. You should meet his God cause sounds to me like you haven’t yet. By the way, who curses when talking about a Pastor?! Sounds like you really do know what you’re talking about, LOL. Okay, that was sarcastic in case you didn’t catch that.
And to the Sheriff of these here parts, listen to more than one message of his before you start going around and blasting the man. It reminds me of a pastor who says to “tear that page out of your Bible, it doesn’t apply to you or I” and then says it again and again. He picks and chooses what he wants you to hear and in the end all your left with is a front and back cover cause you don’t want to abide by anything cause it doesn’t fit your lifestyle. Thats a shame man that you’re miss representing the word of God and blasting Pastors that speak a message that doesn’t make you feel all warm and tingly inside. Got your toes stepped on so you’re fighting back instead of taking it and learning from it. Well good luck with the simple mindedness. I hope I made you feel warm and tingly. If not, I’m not sorry.
So is it necessary to tithe to be saved?
If your saved, you should wanna tithe. It helps spread the good news of Christ, but after exploring more of this sight I see there is no one wanting to do that. All you people do is bash Christians and Pastors from all around and then write about how Christians should be and what should be preached. And the funny thing is you say it as if you are the perfect Christian, but reading your blogs makes me sick to think you would even call yourself Christians. I now know why Christians have a bad rap in the world. Like the Bible says, if you’re going to live like the world and act like the world, then do it 100%. I hope you all get true salvation and then maybe you can hang with Pastor Scott Ochsner & Jesus in paradise someday.
thank youi for your kind words Stymonhawk
The truth sucks sometimes but it also needs told. I’m not perfect by any stretch, but I pray for the Man of God in my life and I don’t go around beating down other ministries. What happened to praying for the men and women of God instead of wanting to nail them to their own cross if we don’t agree with them. As I recall, there is only 1 person to live that perfect life and you, I, nor Pastor Scott is him.
“The truth sucks sometimes but it also needs told.”
Agreed. It sucks for the churches, but the truth is that tithing is not a requirement and should not be demanded of Christians. I wish these churches would listen to the truth.
The other article groupsects posted up re tithing was a good explanation. Did you read it?
A book I think is excellent on the subject, that was accepted by the Presbyterian church as the most thorough examination of the subject, when they were trying to decide whether to teach tithing or not, is ‘Beyond Tithing’ by Stuart Murray. It is not angry, not anti- any church. He concluded tithing was ‘bad news for the poor’, and is not a commandment or obligation for Christians.
No one is claiming to lead a perfect life – but you don’t need to tithe to get close. Stymonhawk, you condemn other Christians who don’t share your view on tithing, and raise doubts about their faith, implied by your ‘quotes’ around the word ‘Christian’. Why do you condemn us when there is no condemnation for us in Christ? Are you raising yourself over the one you say you serve?
Ravingpente, are you serious!? I’m not better by any means. You’re probably a lot better person than I am because I love God and I’m passionate about what he has instructed me to do so if I came off aggressive, I do apologize. Here are some scriptures to back up my views on the tithe my Bible says. Lev. 27:30, Matt. 22:15-22, Heb. 6:13-7:10, Mal. 3:6-12 (The Storehouse is your local Church today). I finish with this one thing and I’ll not take anymore of your time on this sight cause I see we’re at a deadend with one another but Pastor Scott is a great man and I’ve met him on several occations. To judge him the way you do is unfair without knowing who he is. Your myth on Pastors are pretty much pocketing the tithe they collect is way off base. It pays the bills at the church. So with that, thanks for the discussions and good luck and God Bless.
PASTOR OSCHNER IS A GOOD GUY HIS CHILDREN GO TO MY SCHHOL AND THEY ARE VERY GOOD…………… HE BACKS IT WITH BIBLE SO I DONT KNOW WHAT YOUR GUYS PROBLEM IS, I THINK YOU NEED HELP IF YOU DONT AGREE WITH HIM!
The finished work of the Cross was a FREE GIFT. We cannot BUY our salvation! It was purchased and given freely to all who believe upon Jesus. We are SAVED (healed, delivered, prospered, set free and made whole) through faith! It is a GIFT of God so that no man can boast! (Eph 2:8-9). To say that we have to do something to receive the benefits of salvation is erroneous! I am not judging the person but the message and this message is an affront to the Gospel of graxe.
oops … affront to the Gospel of GRACE!
1 Corinthians 11:27-34
Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world. Therefore, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. But if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, lest you come together for judgment. And the rest I will set in order when I come.
So there is a precedent for judgement on persons who eat and drink the Lord’s supper in an unworthy manner. It leads to infirmity, sickness ad even death. Yet the correct taking of communion is not works which leads to salvation, but subsequent works which demonstrate faith. Nor does it conflict with salvation which is by grace alone through faith.
Salvation cannot, as you say, be earned, but health and well-being on this earth can, according to this scripture, be forfeited by irreverent conduct.
However, there isn’t a precedent or requirement for New Testament believers to tithe according to Law. Therefore any giving, unless it is a vow, is as purposed by the giver. In regard to a vow, Annanias and Sapphira paid the ultimate earthly price for deliberately withholding a promised offering. In fact they died for lying to the Holy Ghost, but the lie involved a promised offering.
To those who live under the law and don’t fully believe the law is taken away, then these rules apply to YOU. These CHANGED rules now that Christ is our High Priest. In Hebrews 7, there is scriptural proof that the tithe is obsolete because Christ does NOT need our money to accomplish what he wants accomplished:
Hebrews 7:2-28
and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name means “king of righteousness”; then also, “king of Salem” means “king of peace.”
Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever.
Just think how great he was: Even the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the plunder! Now the law requires the descendants of Levi who become priests to collect a tenth from the people—that is, their brothers—even though their brothers are descended from Abraham. This man, however, did not trace his descent from Levi, yet he collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises…
… In the one case, the tenth is collected by men who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living.
… If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come— one in the order of Melchizedek, NOT IN THE ORDER OF AARON? FOR WHEN THERE IS A CHANGE OF THE PRIESTHOOD, THERE MUST ALSO BE A CHANGE OF THE LAW…
… For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.
And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. For it is declared: “You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”
The FORMER REGULATION IS SET ASIDE BECAUSE IT WAS WEAK AND USELESS (FOR THE LAW MADE NOTHING PERFECT), and A BETTER HOPE IS INTRODUCED, BY WHICH WE DRAW NEAR TO GOD.
And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him: “The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: ‘You are a priest forever.’”
Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.
Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; but because Jesus lives forever, HE HAS A PERMANENT PRIESTHOOD. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
Such a high priest meets our need — one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. FOR THE LAW APPOINTS AS HIGH PRIESTS MEN WHO ARE WEAK; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.
So here the rules have changed under our new High Priest who is Jesus Christ. No more animal sacrifices. No more offices. No more strivings. No more offerings. No more TITHES. He doesn’t need them because HE IS NOT A WEAK MAN-HIGH-PRIEST but an eternal man that has no need for money or food.
Give out of a cheerful heart to bless those who need blessing. For now the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death” (Rom 8:2).
Except…
… that the Order of Melchizadek is an Eternal Priesthood, without the Law, preceding law and superseding Law,
…AND Levi paid tithes, in Abram, to this Order, of which Christ is now High Priest, BEFORE the Law, and outside the Law, and when the Law was not yet a consideration. Which also demonstrates that this tithe was not of Law, but out of respect and honour for the covenant relationship Abram had with God
…and to acknowledge God for his covenant help in defeating Lot’s captors and rescuing Lot’s family, also in covenant with Abram.
…Jesus had need of money when he walked the earth. He paid taxes. He bought food. He rented lodgings. Etc..
…we have need of money whilst we are yet in the earth. We pay taxes. We eat food. We have a roof over our heads. We have dependants. We have the poor who need our help.
…what do we give with a cheerful heart to bless those who need blessing if we have no need of money in the earth?
Except …
Major Tom – if one nneds to abide by the tithe, becuase it supercedes the Law – should not one also keep the (Saturday) Sabbath as this was instituted in early Genesis and before the Law…?
Except…
…again in Hebrews, the Rest is Today, therefore everyday, not just a weekly weekday as in Saturday.
Hebrews 4:1-10
‘Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.
For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: “So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest,’” although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”
Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “TODAY,” after such a long time, as it has been said: “TODAY, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.” For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day.
There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.’
We who have believed do enter that rest, through faith, and the rest is here called Today!
And…
…Abraham’s tithe precedes and supersedes the Law, since the Melchisadec Priesthood is outside of Law, is eternal and abiding, so, therefore, as pointed out previously, the tithe is not obligatory in a legal sense, being outside of Law.
But…
Here’s food for your thoughts on conscience: Since it is said in Hebrews that Levi paid tithes in Abraham (Heb.7:9), does it not follow by principle that also Levi’s father, Isaac, must have paid tithes in Abraham also, and, those who follow, including Jacob, who is Israel, which means Israel, by decendancy, ancient and modern, paid tithes in Abraham. Added to this, the promised Seed of Abraham, who is Christ (Gal.3:16), must have paid tithes in Abraham, and, finally, those who are of the Seed, the Church (Gal.3:29), paid tithes in Abraham, setting a precedent for all those who are of like faith as Abraham.
Correction, is should read… Levi’s father, Jacob (Israel), and his father Isaac, also, paid tithes in Abraham.
You forget, MTom, that Christ should no longer be viewed as a normal man.
He has no need for food or anything that has to try to keep him alive.
HE IS LIFE.
So the tithe given in the OT was generally food for priests who DIE. So why would Jesus accept a tithe if HE is the AUTHOR OF LIFE. He has no need for it!
“Here’s food for your thoughts on conscience: Since it is said in Hebrews that Levi paid tithes in Abraham (Heb.7:9), does it not follow by principle that also Levi’s father, Isaac, must have paid tithes in Abraham also, and, those who follow, including Jacob, who is Israel, which means Israel, by decendancy, ancient and modern, paid tithes in Abraham. Added to this, the promised Seed of Abraham, who is Christ (Gal.3:16), must have paid tithes in Abraham, and, finally, those who are of the Seed, the Church (Gal.3:29), paid tithes in Abraham, setting a precedent for all those who are of like faith as Abraham.”
Christ never paid tithes in Abraham! That is an outrageous and unbiblical and totally an unsupported claim. You can not make stuff up like that!
And we are born again of the Spirit not Abraham! We did not come from the loins of Abraham! We are his promised children through God’s Holy Spirit. But what heavenly spirit has ever tithed?
Spirits are not bound by earthly law!
To say that this passage in Hebrews affirms that we should tithe in principle completely ignores the intent of the passage, which is to show the greatness, sufficiency and perfection of the eternal priesthood of Jesus and to affirm that the Law has been set aside.
Some people may well tithe, and consider themselves correct, yet not give to Jesus at all. (I’m not suggesting that applies to all who tithe – but understand that tithing is NOT ‘the way’ we are all now called to give – its not some checkbox to tick or even example to follow.)
The passage was not written to say we should tithe, and since the only example of tithing in it is completely different from the detailed tithing system instituted later, if we were to follow it as an example, we’d have to follow the way Abraham did it.
The tithe of income expected today is of a completely different type to the tithe that Abraham paid in the OT. If we were actually seeking to tithe _in the same way_ Abraham did, we’d be looking for the equivalent of the spoils of war, and then we’d give 10% and would not be keeping the other 90% of it. The income tithe today has only a very superficial resemblance to the Levitical tithe system of the Jews.
The modern tithe is someone’s opinion of how the old system should be conveniently applied in our modern world, yet has become the standard for basic giving in many churches.
However – we are in fact told exactly how to give to our High Priest Jesus in the NT. In no uncertain language.
Jesus said that whatever we do to others, we do to Him. When we give to the poor, we give to Him. When we are generous to our brother, we are generous to Him. If this sounds like inadequate giving – then we should reassess how we are going about it until we have peace on the matter.
If we wish to give to our High Priest, He has told us how. If we are abiding in Him, this is what we will do as a normal part of our lives, and it will be from our hearts, as an expression of love.
Matt 35:31-46
31″When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34″Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37″Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40″The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41″Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44″They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45″He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
“The tithe of income expected today is of a completely different type to the tithe that Abraham paid in the OT. If we were actually seeking to tithe _in the same way_ Abraham did, we’d be looking for the equivalent of the spoils of war, and then we’d give 10% and would not be keeping the other 90% of it. The income tithe today has only a very superficial resemblance to the Levitical tithe system of the Jews.”
To clarify – ie: the modern income tithe does not resemble either the one-off Abrahamic tithe or the later Jewish tithe system.
Even if it did, we still have something better now, superceding all this. Called freewill giving, led as we abide in Him.
The Abrahamic tithe would be of no consequence to us if it had not been mentioned in Hebrews, and with the added reference to Levi, the receiver of tithes under the Law, being the giver of tithes, by faith, in Abraham. This is exactly what gives this tithe its significance, in fact, making it of a higher significance, since the writer of Hebrews is making it clear that the Melchisadec priesthood is superior in every way to the Levitical priesthood, and an eternal Priesthood.
I have actually said twice now that this passage proves that the Abrahamic tithe is not of Law, and therefore is a faith transaction between the giver and the Receiver, not a legal requirement as the tithe was under the Mosaic Law.
Clearly, since the Law has been superseded by the New Covenant and fulfilled in Christ, we are under no obligation to tithe by Law. Which means Ps Oschser is incorrect in his teaching on this, if he is saying there is a necessity to tithe under Law, and there are consequently detrimental effects to disobeying the instruction.
However Hebrews clearly teaches that the tithe of Abraham was a greater tithe than the tithe under Moses. What you do with it is entirely up to you.
Of course, it must be true that Christ, who is nominated as the Seed of Abraham (Gal.3:16), paid tithes in Abraham, if, as the writer to the Hebrews says, Levi paid tithes in Abraham.
Christ the Seed was no less in the loins of Abraham than Levi, who was Abraham’s natural grandson, not yet born, not yet conceived. I mentioned this as a point of interest, not a proof that we should tithe by Law.
Abraham is called the father of faith to all those who believe. Everyone who is of Christ, the Seed, is also called the seed of Abraham. ‘And if you are Christ’s, then are you Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise’ (Gal.3:29). This Seed cannot be any less the seed of Abraham than Isaac, Jacob (Israel) or Levi.
The writer to the Hebrews is indeed stressing the greatness of the New Covenant, and the higher position of Christ, but along the way other principles are mentioned which we cannot ignore. One of them is the mention that the tithe of Abraham was made a greater tithe than the Levitical tithe by the presence and interaction of the Priest of the Order of Melchisadec. It shows that this tithe is not to be ignored or dismissed as insignificant.
Major Tom,
Do you believe that Melchizidech was in fact Christ – perhaps making a cameo appearance of sorts?
‘So the tithe given in the OT was generally food for priests who DIE. So why would Jesus accept a tithe if HE is the AUTHOR OF LIFE. He has no need for it!’
Hebrews 7:8
‘Here men that die receive tithes; but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives…’
The Levitical tithe was more than ‘generally food for priests’. It was holy unto the Lord.
A theophany? Perhaps. There are definite signs that, at the very least, Melchisadec is a type of Christ, being ‘made like unto the Son of God’ (Heb.7:3).
The important doctrinal consideration is the confirmed fact of the Order, God’s vow, “the Lord has sworn, and will not repent, ‘You are a priest forever after the Order of Melchisadec’” (Ps.110:4), and Christ being the current High Priest of that Eternal Order.
BTW – major Tom, it good having you here to discuss this issue rationally.
Assuming it’s not you playing games again LF. As with most trolls your posts are very close together timing wise.
Lance, for the confidence of others on this blog, can you please confirm that MT and LF are not the same person? Maybe check their IP addresses?
Lionfish and Major Tom are not one and the same.
They are posting comments from different states of Australia.
In fact, I had Major Tom’s comments go through moderation for a time because I suspected he/she was F*cel*ft
I dont think MT is LF, he might be FL.
Interesting that MT talks about typology. Mostly when I was in the Pentecostal church, I never heard any sophisticated Biblical interpretation. This is not surprising since most evangelical approaches to the bible emphasise that one must take the plain meaning of scripture and they are sceptical of the more creative interpretations of the bible.
The only time I ever heard about typology (which interprets biblical figures as symbols or types) in a Pente sermon was when addressing the topic of tithing. The argument pretty much went the same as MT expressed it. “Is Melchizedek Christ?, well perhaps.. he is certainly a type of Christ.”
It shows that the scriptural gap is rather wide, if one has to bring in looser and looser interpretations in order to get the result one wants. Most Pentecostals are scornful of similar techniques that are used by Liberal Christians, eg. when Spong interprets Paul’s “thorn in the flesh” to be Homosexuality.
All the arguments against tithing are not likely to move the Pastors who promote it. It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.
Well, again, whether Melchisadec is a theophany or a type isn’t the main issue.
The confirmation that the High Priesthood is after the order of Melchisadec and precedes and supersedes the Law is the most important point here, and it is not at all obscure, or allegorical, but very clear. Then it follows that the Abrahamic tithe is given a higher precedence than the Levitical tithe.
There are two immutable promises on which this passage of scripture are based (Heb.6:13-20). One, that God has said that ‘blessing he will bless, and multiplying he will multiply’ the seed of Abraham. Two, that Christ has been made ‘a priest forever after the Order of Melchisadec’.
These are the two immutable things in scripture by which God swore by himself, there being no higher authority by which he could swear, giving these facts added power and importance.
This Melchisadec, then (whether a theophany or a type, it matters not), met with Abraham and blessed him with bread and wine, proclaiming a blessing on Abraham and his seed, after which he received tithes. He did not refuse them.
But the order and language of this event is significant. It was the King of Salem who came out to Abram, as he then was, with bread and wine, being the Priest of the Most High God, and he blessed Abram, and said, “Blessed be Abram of the Most High God, Possessor of Heaven and Earth: and blessed be the Most high God who has delivered your enemies into your hand”. Then Abram gave tithes of all, I believe, acknowledging God as his covenant God who gave his enemies into his hand and worked the victory.
What Abraham did with the rest of the spoils is of no consequence, since the principle, if you need one, is that he had the power over what he did with the rest of the spoils, not that he decided to return them to the King of Sodom.
Directly following this event, God personally interacts with Abram, shows him the stars of heaven, tells him to count them, and says ‘So shall your seed be’, indicating a vast multitude, at which point Abram believes, and it is counted to him for righteousness.
Blessed indeed!
Major Tom, this is the time of the Priesthood of ALL believers.
Should we be paying our tithes to ourselves – since there is no precedent in the New Testament to pay tithes to the NT Church (as an entity)?
Nikki – our posts are very close together – maybe you and I are one and the same….?
That’s a good idea, Lionfish. If you want I’ll let you know my internet banking details, so you can start the process.
Otherwise, what you give is entirely up to you, bearing in mind the interesting factor you brought up previously, regarding the conscience. 1 Corinthians 10:29-33 is particularly helpful in this.
‘“Conscience,” I say, not your own, but that of the other. For why is my liberty judged by another man’s conscience? But if I partake with thanks, why am I evil spoken of for the food over which I give thanks? Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God, just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.’
So if any person’s conscience permits or persuades them to give in a certain way, including tithing, who are we to judge their liberty by our own, which may prohibit the tithe? And who are they to judge others’ liberty in refusing to tithe? Let everything be done to the glory of God, and give no offence.
Yes, it’s true that we are all priests and kings, even a royal priesthood called and separated to worship God. But there can only be one High Priest, and it’s he who has already received tithes through Abraham. And, under the Old Covenant, Levi also paid tithes, despite being the priesthood of their day.
I think MJ is FL, but I have no proof. But anyway, he’s being polite and reasonable, so I don’t have an issue while this is the case. BTW – haven’t read all the comments yet; just commenting based on general impression.
And importantly, MJ has not threatened anyone.
I mean MT, not MJ!
I’m saying we no longer have to tithe, but I’m not really getting where you’re coming at with your scriptures.
But read the following for a sec:
Heb7:24-26
…but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood.
Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
26Such a high priest meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens.”
So If Christ, our King High Priest of Peace & Righteousness, meets our needs, why should we tithe if he’s promised that through His life in us, we are already blessed before we even give?
It only demonstrates that we should give cheerfully, not so that we can do something ‘holy’. What makes our actions ‘holy’ is the one that lives in us that makes this vessel ‘holy’.
I was going to say a question similar to LF, but LF had already asked it.
MT said:
“And who are they to judge others’ liberty in refusing to tithe?”
Because this act is CALLED a tithe by those that do so, this indicates that they cannot see what has been accomplished through Christ, otherwise they’d just give cheerfully and not fight to defend the tithe so fiercely.
So by the way you have written, are you saying that Jesus IS Melchizedek? I would say He’s greater then Melchidizedek because He is “exalted above the heavens” (vs 26). They are of the same order (meaning position or rank), but the characteristics and person of Christ is greater still.
The scripture could also say this:
(vs 27)
Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day or collect tithes…
Why can I do this? Unlike the other high priests, Jesus remains ALIVE. They needed the tithe to feed themselves. Without food, they die. Christ is still alive and doesn’t need a tithe. They were imperfect human beings but Christ was perfect therefore he needed to offer no sacrifice on His behalf to be pure and blameless!
And Christ never tithed through Abraham to Melchizedek. He was a carpenter. Only farmers tithed. He was exempt!
It was more that Melchizedek saw the Promised One in Abraham and WANTED to bless him and dine with him. Abram tithed. So what? The BLESSING came before the tithe and would therefore be greater than the tithe.
Gen 14:18-20
Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, and he blessed Abram, saying, “Blessed be Abram by God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth.
And blessed be God Most High, who delivered your enemies into your hand.”
Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything.
BTW. MT being FL crossed my mind, but I don’t want to believe it…
‘Only farmers tithed’.
So you are saying Levi was a farmer when he tithed in Abraham? I think part of the argument is that Abraham’s tithe wasn’t farm produce, yet Levi tithed in him, so why not everyone else who was in Abraham, as Christ the Seed clearly was?
MT – go and read ‘Beyond Tithing’ by Stuart Murray. It’s a definitive examination of the subject. I’ve recommended this book here before. It was used by the Presbyterian church to assist in examining the issue. It is not angry or anti-Pentecostal – Stuart Murray is an Anabaptist, and highly respected by people from many different church backgrounds. If you can support people tithing from the Abrahamic argument after reading this book, then go for it.
Of course we all need to be comfortable in our conscience regarding this matter, so those who believe they ought to tithe should do so. But for anyone who wants to examine the issue without being caught up in anger or anti-church arguments, this is the book. It also gives a comprehensive history of tithing within the church over the centuries, which I found fascinating for its own sake.
He also looks at alternative to tithing when recognising the need for organised churches to raise funds – he doesn’t negate this issue. His examination of the concept of Jubilee and its fulfilment in Jesus is also worth consideration.
MT – I think you are FL, and will do so until you inform me otherwise. FL believes in tithing from an Abrahamic perspective rather than a legal one. This book is one that should sit on the shelf of any church leader or anyone formulating church policy regarding tithing – even if they disagree with it.
Hi Major Tom,
The Melchizidech example is not something that constitutes that tithing is an obligatory practice ’for Christians.
See: http://tekoapublishing.com/books/tithing/chapter2.html (Please read: “The Real Issue” Section).
Personally, I agree that a Christian is free to tithe (give ten-percent) as a matter of conviction or as God has purposed on his heart.
A Christian is also free as a matter of conscience to abstain or to eat certain foods; to keep or not to keep certain days as Holy; to be circumcised or not to be circumcised … as outlined in Romans 14.
This is a matter of Christian liberty! For this we should NOT JUDGE how a Christian practices his/her faith.
There is no mandate to tithe in the New Testament, giving is to be as God has purposed on one’s own heart – yet there is a mandate to give proportionally, but there is no set percentage mandated … this (%age) is left to the individual to decide or to follow his own heart.
I do not judge a person for ‘tithing’…
However, I will speak out when a layperson or teacher attempts to encumber another a believer with their own conviction or by teaching based upon poor hermeneutics and exegesis – particularly when there are so many mega-church pastors living large and excessively at the expense of those who cannot afford to and have been manipulated into tithing … i.e. They are not taught that it is a matter of individual conscience – rather they are taught that they are obligated to from the scriptures – and worse they are robbing God/cursed etc if they do not live up to a standard that they cannot áfford’ to fulfill.
I love the way Russ Kelly sums it up:
“New Covenant giving is: freewill, sacrificial, generous, joyful, regular and motivated by love for God, fellow Christians and lost souls. Do not burden or curse God’s poor who struggle to feed and shelter their family. Although there is no set percentage for Christians to give, all should give sacrificially or lower your standards of living in order to further the reach of the Gospel”.
LF – I’m with you on this! Nicely put.
There is a danger in the Russ Kelly quote – he uses the word “all” about another type of Christian giving. There really are times for some Christians when they ought not lower their standard of living further for a variety of reasons, and really ought not to be sacrificing more – unless God has led them to. Rather, they ought to be on the receiving end for a time. Or resting. And at another time, they may well be the ones giving generously, having compassion for others in difficult situations.
So I’m wary even of burdening believers with NT ’should’s’ applying to all situations, as these can also become harmful, legalistic, manipulative or bring guilt/condemnation on people.
The last thing we need is people abandoning tithing, but still living under a burden of guilt, robbing them of the joy of giving from the heart under grace, or having an alternative doctrine coercing them.
I imagine that Russ Kelly would not mean to burden poor Christian’s like that! He no doubt wanted to assure people that abandoning the false teaching re tithing is not abandoning the concept of NT giving, and I totally agree.
No Im not FL FAcelift right they are into the pentesystem. Yeah Ive bee bloggin a bit sorry. specially since leaving a megachurch environment. I need to vent and read what others think. I only just came out so to speak lol
Pastor Scott is a good man and loves god with all his heart. oh T.O i am someone from their school too please tell me who you are i want to meet you and no one should talk about my pastor if you do. STOP IT!!!!!!!!you don’t no him and maybe you should listen to the whole message.in the bible 1crothians 13 4:8 it says what love is and it says love is kind and not rude.i thank all you people for your kind words about pastor scott ochsner. you are kind and surley not rude thanks
Stymanhawk said above
mo116 said
Pastor Scott is a good man and loves god with all his heart
We are talking about his message – not him as a person. You are right we don’t know him and are not in a position to discus his personality or his heart. I don’t doubt that he loves God – but I am in no doubt that his message about tithing is 100% wrong. When your pastor puts his message out in the public domain he opens it up to criticism and we are actually being very biblical in checking his message out against biblical teaching and shining the light of truth on his false message.
Your pastor is the one who claims that:
that is nothing short of false preaching – it is not found in the bible and actual life experience will tell you that it is wrong – how many tither’s do you know who have died from cancer and other diseases?
Thanks for attempting to inject a little sanity into this thread, Greg – although don’t be too disheartened if it’s not heard where it needs to be