Culturemap reports…
“At Lakewood Church, Joel Osteen proclaims,”It’s God’s will for you to live in prosperity instead of poverty.” The pastor of the Houston megachurch and wife Victoria certainly practice what they preach.
The couple has moved to a $10.5 million mansion in River Oaks, while keeping their former Tanglewood residence, valued at $2.9 million.
They are, however, selling a vacant lot next to their former home. Asking price for the half-acre property at the corner of Doliver and Sherbrooke: $1.1 million. Martha Turner Properties has the listing.
The lot is marked by an ivy-covered wall that adjoins the 5,600-square-foot, four bedroom home. When the land is sold, the property will be divided.
In a sign that the Houston real estate market remains soft at the high end, the Tanglewood lot was first offered for sale at an asking price of $1.4 million last August. The price was dropped to $1.299 million in December and to $1.1 million last month.
Several months ago, the couple and their children moved to a 17,000-square-foot stone mansion in the Tall Timbers subdivision in River Oaks. The Osteens’ new home is situated on 1.86 acres and surrounded by an ornamental fence. The 411: It has six bedrooms, six bathrooms, three elevators and five wood-burning fireplaces, with a one-bedroom guest house and pool house. The Harris County Appraisal District valued it at $10.5 million.
The Tanglewood house is owned by Joel and Victoria Osteen according to Harris County Appraisal District records. The River Oaks home is technically owned by the Covenant Trust, which means the Osteens do not qualify for a homestead exemption on it. They will pay around $260,000 in property taxes on the new home this year.
“The homestead exemption would reduce that amount, but they probably put the ownership in a trust for federal tax purposes that outweighs the benefits of the property tax exemption,” surmised a home appraisal specialist who asked not to be identified.
According to reports, Osteen hasn’t drawn a salary from the church since 2005. His income comes from best-selling books and related products, such as calendars, daybooks and inspirational pamphlets.
I’m not sure what the stance on this article is…maybe a slight jab @ Osteen for his “abundance?”
I think people dislike him because he is different from all the others out there. He is more genuine and you can see how he helps people. Although I never heard of a house with three elevators, if this is what he wants, this is what he has worked for, shouldn’t he be able to have what he worked for? I don’t believe he has harmed anyone in the process of achieving it.
^^^ what a dickhead ^^^
“More genuine”, “don’t believe he has harmed anyone”?!
Hit us with some stats that prove otherwise, not just opinions. What should we be “outraged” about?
Has he forced anyone to tune in to the broadcast or visit the church?
Has he condemned anyone to hell for doing certain things?
Does he force people to send his ministry offerings?
If so, it should be fairly easy to back up these statements with some facts.
When you’re the victim of a con, you give your money willingly thinking you’re going to get something back in return. You prey on people’s need for something. It’s pretty basic really and has worked for millenia, whether the conduit is salvation or greed. There’s always someone out there ready to take advantage of other people’s weaknesses. Open your eyes.
Measure the ‘gospel’ he preaches against the Biblical gospel, and you’ll find his to be false.
Wrong doctrine leads to wrong practice. The garbage he fills his followers’ minds with can only do harm. Maybe they’re under the impression that their living their “best life now”, but I wonder about their eternal prospects.
The link below will take you to a well-researched article which discusses the “prosperity gospel” generally.
http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/politics/1374/
“Has he forced anyone to tune in to the broadcast or visit the church?
Has he condemned anyone to hell for doing certain things?
Does he force people to send his ministry offerings?”
No one has been forced to do anything – including give to the guy or buy his books, BUT…. it is the manipulation that goes on – very sincere people being fleeced by very manipulative people.
The wolves who pose as ministers are knowingly fleecing people – it is about living the high life – nothing more! This is an evil that I am sure people like James, the brother of Jesus, St Paul, Peter and John would have been horrified by. And lets include Martin Luther in that group too!
Ok but in that link “locusts” posted, with that picture and those statements I can understand why people would think these preachers only want money. I’m just saying I have not experienced that with Joel specifically. People send his ministry money of their own free will, but I have never seen or heard of him constantly asking for donations. (Key word: constantly)
He has books, CD’s, DVD’s, etc. But these are optional. I never feel pressured to buy these things. But people need to think clearly and not use rent or mortgage money to tithe or buy a product. I think it’s easy to blame the messenger, and not focus on the root problem (people’s mismanagement of their resources).
Maybe more should be done at the grade-school level, teaching kids the fundamentals of money, since this is what they world seems to be ruled by. I do agree that there are several preachers who constantly barrage their “flock” with advertisements and more marketing. I’m not saying that Joel doesn’t do these things, but I don’t see them done on the same scale and with the same intent as others.
Last thing…when he does go on tour, he is one of the only pastors I know that charges $10/ticket to see him. Not $25, $35 and upwards like others have done. Consider he is traveling and has expenses, I don’t think that is too much to ask a family of four to pay if they would like to see him. Not to mentioned he donated all of the proceeds of a 2005 tour event to the relief effort for victims of Hurricane Katrina.
Osteen chargs $10.00!! Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland don’t charge at all. Yes, they do ask for an offering and pass the bucket around, but you don’t have to give them anything.
Osteen charges $10 because back when he did his first NYC tour, the city of New York required that he make the event ticketed for crowd control reasons. They charged $10 because the ticketmaster fee was $9. ie: $1 per ticket went to financing the tour.
What a contrast to John Wesley, who figured out what he needed to live on annually, and gave away everything he earned above that amount. As his income increased each year, he didn’t increase his standard of living, but rather increased his giving.
I’d much rather follow the example of Francis Chan (who sold his house to move to a smaller one so he could give more to the church) or David Platt (author of “Radical: Taking Back Your Faith from the American Dream”).
Holly, if you really want to see what Joel is doing, read the book, “Christless Christianity” by Michael Horton. The prosperity gospel which Joel proclaims IS Christless Christianity. Nowhere in Scripture does Christ tell us to go out and make ourselves wealthy while turning our backs on the needs of others. Jesus tells us that we must love God and love others first and foremost in our lives . We must build God’s Kingdom here on earth by caring for the needs of others, not building big mansions for ourselves with money we have earned through TWISTING the gospel into a self-serving message that focuses ONLY on our well-being and prosperity. Joel is a wolf in sheep’s clothing who is enticing thousands of people with a “feel good” message that has NOTHING to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ!
Oh, another point is that the money he uses to buy the mansions, cars and other “luxury” items doesn’t even come from the church, but rather his sales of books, CD, and other memorabilia. But of course someone will also see something wrong with that.
Furthermore, just because you are in a position like his, doesn’t mean you should take a vow of poverty to help people. He is a human being and is allowed to enjoy the fruits of his labor just like anyone else here on Earth.
Not to mention that he is NOT Jesus, so therefore he is NOT obligated to take on all the sins of the world just because other people think he should. You know, if he helps just 10 people with his message, that is 10 more than what many other ordinary people do in their daily lives.
I don’t hear anyone saying that Joel has a bad attitude, treats people unjustly, hurts animals, cheats on his taxes, cheats on his wife, etc. But somewhere on Earth there is going to be someone who doesn’t like him and TRIES to give examples of why he is not to be trusted.
At the very least…he is teaching what many teachers tell you when you are in school: you can be what you want to be, just set your mind to a goal and pursue it. Not too much different than Live Your Best Life Now. But guess what? Joel, Anthony Robbins, Dave Ramsey, it doesn’t matter what field you pick, most people today who are rich and famous are simply doing or saying things that have been done or said many, many times before. People can choose whether to pay for a book, CD, seminar, etc. or not. In fact, most of Joel’s stuff is FREE, just like some of the other guru’s that are rich.
So…tell me what’s wrong with free advice?
The fact of the matter is that most things we need in life have been here all along, and some people do not have the same mentality as others. But no where in this post or in the follow comments by others is any unbiased information or proof that basically says Joel Osteen is distorting the Bible for his own personal gain.
Last point: here’s a prayer that was at the bottom of a email newsletter sent out by Joel Osteen’s ministry. Please tell me where it says something about personal gain, or is something God would not like:
“Heavenly Father, thank You for working all things together for my good. I choose to release any doubt, any frustration, any confusion over my past, and I choose to trust in You. Help me to see the big picture as I keep my mind stayed on You. In Jesus’ Name. Amen.”
Holyevents, you said something that caught my eye:
“He has books, CD’s, DVD’s, etc. But these are optional. I never feel pressured to buy these things. But people need to think clearly and not use rent or mortgage money to tithe or buy a product. I think it’s easy to blame the messenger, and not focus on the root problem (people’s mismanagement of their resources).” – holyevents
I have heard this kind of comment from occasional people at church. They listen to the tithing doctrine every week, but if someone is in financial trouble, they would say it was stupid of that person to use their money to tithe, rather than pay their rent or mortgage. They say that you have to take what the pastors teach ‘with a grain of salt’, and only silly people would do otherwise. So they can sit happily through the services, filtering out the extremes with ‘a grain of salt’, but looking as though they support every inch of the church culture. They don’t have a problem with what is taught, because only those lacking sense would take it at face value.
Is this your thinking?
In the churches I have been in, and in conversations with their pastors, tithing is officially taught on the gross income, before any expenses, whether they be food, tax, electricity bills or your mortgage. Mortgages should be sized so that you don’t have to choose between paying your mortgage or your tithe.
Does Joel Osteen teach the above?
holyevents: “Please tell me where it says something about personal gain, or is something God would not like:
Heavenly Father, thank You for working all things together for my good. I choose to release any doubt, any frustration, any confusion over my past, and I choose to trust in You. Help me to see the big picture as I keep my mind stayed on You. In Jesus’ Name. Amen.”
Let me translate for you holyevents:
“Heavenly Father, thank You for working all things together for my good (ME!!!!). I (ME!!!!) choose to release any doubt (ME!!!!), any frustration (ME!!!!), any confusion (ME!!!!) over my (ME!!!!) past, and I (ME!!!!) choose to trust in You. Help me (ME!!!!) to see the big picture as I (ME!!!!) keep my mind (ME!!!!) stayed on You. In Jesus’ Name. Amen.”
Self-centered gospels lead to self-centered prayers. Yes God is graceful enough to service us, but the gospel of self elevates our self above God.
Finally! You drove home the TRUTH!!! In Christ, Dave
Raving – I’m not sure exactly if Joel teaches this or not. I don’t officially go to his church so I’m not privy to that information. I can only go by what I see and observe myself, so in my comments I usually leave it open for people to correct me if I am wrong. But I have been to churches where certain officials have said…if it comes down to a choice between tithing and paying your mortgage, pay your mortgage!
I think God wants you to do right by Him, but to also make good, educated decisions.
specks – Is God not supposed to be there for us when we have questions or concerns? That prayer didn’t even reference money specifically, but just general things that people go through on a daily basis. Would you rather that we be slaves to God? In that case He could have just taken away our free will and watched as everything we did was for His benefit only.
Sure, we’re on the Earth to help others and serve Him, but we were also given many things to take pleasure and delight in. BALANCE comes from being able to do the right amount of these things to make Him happy. HIM — not man.
Hi all. I want to clarify a few things regarding money & christianity.
Some of the richest people were blessed by God (Solomon, Abraham, Izak, Joseph, Job, etc.) Even Jesus was rich (he had a treasurer carry all the money (who incidently also stole some of it without anyone noticing).
With regards to tithing – I rather pay my tithes than my mortgage. And guess what? God has always provided more than enough to pay my mortgage as well. Malachi 3:10-11 says that God will open up the windows of heaven for you as well as rebuke the devourer for your sake. That is His promise. Why should you doubt Him?
Your success is measured by your attitude and your faith.
Karin said “Even Jesus was rich (he had a treasurer carry all the money (who incidently also stole some of it without anyone noticing).”
If the fact that someone dipped into the purse without others knowing showed the purse was wealthy then why are there so many examples of the poor all the way to the wealthy of this occurring to. For example what of the poor widow whose purse may only have coins in it and her wayward kids steal from it. Then the low income person who has 100$ in the bank and $100 left from last pay day after bills to go shopping with and the kids pinch money while the parent isn’t looking. Then the local kids footy club and the treasurer pinches money for himself. You get the point anybody can have their purse pinched from whether they are poor or rich.
So the fact money was stolen from the teacher’s (Jesus) purse does not indicate how much was in it.
Then we see at the end that Judas was willing to sell out Jesus for 30 pieces of silver, a good amount of money but not enough to make one rich/wealthy. It really was not that much. Now it stands to reason that the 30 pieces of silver MUST have been significantly more than what was in the purse. Lets face it would you sell out a person for double the money you get by taking the purse and not harm anyone.
So its obvious that the “purse” that the disciples carried for Jesus had very significantly less than 30 pieces of silver worth in it.
Have you ever studied what it meant to be a roaming teacher with disciples in the time of Jesus? Do you ever think of the fact they needed a “keeper of the purse” because they had people giving them money as Jesus went around teaching. Read about the teachers/disciples system that was around then. Hardly a picture of wealth.
And why were not the Apostles after Jesus’ resurrection living in luxury since they were full of faith and gave us much of the Christian teachings we have today. Surely they would have lived it. Oh thats right they were busy obeying Jesus and ending up being imprisoned and talking of how they were blessed (prospered). They knew of what Jesus meant by prosper and storing up riches in heaven.
Could it be that what you understand as prosper might not be what the new covenant means by prosper. Where did Jesus tell us to store up treasure? What did Jesus say about the rich and needle? I really do not get money from prosper spoken of in the NT. Stop limiting God by claiming that God’s prosper is increase in money/goods.
Sow&Reaping has now been so perverted that trying to explain it to you would likely fall on stony ground. Jesus likened the Word to a seed and told a parable concerning people’s hearts, look it up and you might start to understand the principle of sowing and reaping as Jesus meant it to be. Where you get money as the seed is trickery.
I love how the prosperity followers say God will only let you reap money if you will use it wisely. But if what they say about sowing money is Biblical then where is the scripture that qualifies the reaping with using the money wisely. Its not there because the bit about sowing a seed of money is also not there.
Think about it, the prosperity sowing and reaping message is so based on self its hard to take it as anything but pure lies.
Sowing and reaping has to do with your heart and its desires and not material things. God promises elsewhere to (amply) meet our needs, and if you already have money then you have no more need of it.
Can Christians be wealthy, yes they can and I know some wealthy ones and I know some very poor ones. Are either of these economic classes of people closer to God, His will, or Faith? It not the money but their “heart, love and faith” that will determine this.
God does not want us to look at success for if we do then we lose sight of Him.
What did God ask us to do????
– Look inward at our success (financial or otherwise) as a measure of our standing with him? OR
- Look to Him who died for us and to love Him with all our hearts and minds (our whole being)?
Karin, that sounds just like the crap he speaks to get all those bathrooms.
Paul, that is God’s promise, not crap as you lightly put it. Read your Bible !!!
Thanks Karin. I knew someone out there could understand that it’s not all about money, as others would make it seem.
“Even Jesus was rich (he had a treasurer carry all the money (who incidently also stole some of it without anyone noticing).”
Honest question. Do ANY people outside of prosperity churches believe that?
And can anyone tell me who the first bible “teacher” was who taught that?
You guys are so petty! Other people’s prosperity, needs and desires have nothing to do with anybody else. If Joel Osteen wants 6 bathrooms – that’s his problem. If you are happy with 1 – also your problem.
My Bible says that God will prosper me – that settles it for me.
Psalm 118:8 (exactly the middle of the bible) says: “It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man”.
To Churchman: Please tell me where in the Bible does it say that God’s children have to be poor?
The principle of Christianity is “sowing & reaping”.
You sow sorrow – you reap sorrow
You sow happiness – you reap hapiness
You sow money – you reap money
Churches that teach otherwise should reconsider their doctrine.
Right, and isn’t that the basic principle in school? None of my teachers told me to grow up to be poor.
The whole premise of school is to work hard, and live a good life.
That’s also the basis for the “American Dream.”
And be cause we study, learn, and apply what we learn, we are “sowing” our futures.
Thus if one becomes rich because of it, why hate?
Prayer is conversation Holy Events.
If you said that prayer to me, I would say you are selfish and not considerate enough of me and enjoying my friendship.
That prayer was not about God, it is about us. Look at it again:
“Heavenly Father, thank You for working all things together for my good. I choose to release any doubt, any frustration, any confusion over my past, and I choose to trust in You. Help me to see the big picture as I keep my mind stayed on You. In Jesus’ Name. Amen.”
I am just thankful he is still able to put up with Osteen.
I don’t. Heretic.
Lev. 19:15 “You shall do no injustice in judgement. You shall not be partial to the poor, nor honour the person of the mightly. But in righteousness you shall judge your neighbour”
Lev. 19:16 “You shall not go about as a tale-bearer among your people; nor shall you take a stand against the life of your neighbour: I am the Lord”
“With regards to tithing – I rather pay my tithes than my mortgage. And guess what? God has always provided more than enough to pay my mortgage as well. Malachi 3:10-11 says that God will open up the windows of heaven for you as well as rebuke the devourer for your sake. That is His promise. Why should you doubt Him?”
Well. If you believe Osteens crap, your money will look after his crap.
And he is obviously full of it, because your paying for his six bathrooms to cater for it.
Looks like Osteen flushed your head down with his theology.
Stop swallowing bullshit theology Karin. You preach a prosperity gospel that only maggots and flies enjoy. Stop trying to sell us the purple garments at the foot of the cross, and look up to the Christ who you are humiliating who died in poverty and frailty. The love of money was what crucified your Lord.
And it is this money and success that has got you brain-flushed. I think Jesus wants to wash your brains for you – you’re full of crap. Stop defending blasphemers of God and repent.
I don’t even listen to Osteen nor have I ever been to his church. I read my bible and apply it’s teachings….
specksandplanks, I’ll pray for you that you may receive the spirit of discernment.
Well it’s a good thing I’m NOT saying it to you, for you are not my God, and my God understands that if I need help with something, I come to Him humbly and ask for his assistance.
And it’s not Osteen’s “crap,” it’s God’s “crap,” LOL!
And as I stated before, tithing does not benefit Osteen personally, as he does not draw a salary from the church. Here’s a flowchart for ya:
Tithe –> The church –> Administrator’s salaries/general upkeep/missions programs/etc
If Joel does not draw a salary, then he is not an administrator. If he is not an administrator, then he does not get paid from your tithe.
In essence he works at the church for free, and his business — which supports his family and all those bathrooms and elevators — is selling books, CD’s, touring I suppose, etc. These are luxury items which people CHOOSE to purchase. He does not say you will go to hell if you don’t buy my book.
Most of what he gives to people is FREE, just for the asking. Podcasts, daily devotionals, shows on TV, etc. Kinda like those miracles that Jesus gave away. Just ask Him, and he’ll be there for you.
And I am sure that he pays his tithes to the church as well. That’s why he is blessed.
He applies Proverbs 3: 9 – 10: “Honor the Lord with your possessions. And with the firstfruits of all your increase. So that your barns (house) will be filled with plenty (bathrooms) and your vats will overflow with new wine”
I was meaning to quote Karin saying this:
“The principle of Christianity is “sowing & reaping”.
You sow sorrow – you reap sorrow
You sow happiness – you reap hapiness
You sow money – you reap money.”
In saying that, I think we know the god osteen get’s his anointing from and smears on others. All hail Hanky!
Specksandplanks: You hail your Hanky!!
I prefer to serve the true Christ.
Like I said before: I will pray for you.
@ Karin – I posted this elsewhere but have a read anyway. John Macarthur is a highly respected pastor of what some may even call a mega-church. If you haven’t heard of him just look at Grace Community Church (gracechurch.org)
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/tithe.htm “Thoughts On Tithing”
Holy Events, what you say about Joel not receiving a salary is true, but you are forgetting some very relevant facts.
- Joel Osteen inherited his father’s mega church because, well, he was his son.
- He WAS receiving a salary for some years, which was based on tithes and offerings.
- He is able to not have to worry about a salary now, because he became famous through at TV show which was paid for by tithes and offerings of other people.
- then through the TV show he can sell his books, or have then given away for donations.
- so now of course he doesn’t need a salary because he got rich basically through a TV show paid for by church members and people who gave.
I actually don’t mind Joel Osteen. I listen to some of his messages from time to time. (I don’t mind positive, uplifting messages. And he has a nice way of talking and smile. Seems like a nice guy to me. )
But, I personally don’t think tithing is necessary in the church age. I DO believe God blesses people financially.
I understand your defense of a Pastor that you like, and that’s just sweet (not being sarcastic).
Just as long as you do realize that Joel Osteen now not drawing a salary is not a huge sacrifice. And as long as you do realize that he did in fact become wealthy directly through the tithes and offerings of his Dad’s church, and the financial supporters.
Not every book writer gets their national and international advertising and marketing paid for them.
See what I mean?
Once again, I am not a Joel Osteen hater. And I do think he’s good for not drawing a salary from the church. He probably has enough money now that he could not only not draw a salary but give all the proceedings of future book sales back to the church or charity – but I’m not saying he has to or should.
@Karin
You asked, “To Churchman: Please tell me where in the Bible does it say that God’s children have to be poor?”
Actually, I don’t think is said God’s children or anyone’s children have to be poor. Did I? And I don’t think they have to be.
I think what I asked was “Honest question. Do ANY people outside of prosperity churches believe that?
And can anyone tell me who the first bible “teacher” was who taught that?”
And it was about your statement that Jesus was rich. (Perhaps you based that on the fact that he had a treasurer and money was stolen without people noticing).
My opinion for my study of the New Testament is that Jesus was not rich – in the sense of what we would define it today).
I’m surpised that bible teachers in the prosperity movement teach that he was, and I am not convinced or their arguments. Alright, I’ll be honest. I think their arguments are so silly that I thought they were joking at first.
I just was asking other people, but including you or anyone, whether any bible teachers or scholars think that Jesus was rich (6 bathroom rich, or even 3 bathroom rich). And I’m interested to know who started this teaching.
Perhaps you’re young and you don’t know this but prosperity doctrine is fairly new. And the prosperity preachers usually taught that Jesus was POOR so that we could be rich.
Arguing that Jesus was rich (how rich depends on the preacher), is an interesting one.
By the way, I would rather be rich than poor. I would rather my children be rich than poor. I wish that everyone was rich. (But of course then some would be super rich and the rich would then be considered poor by comparison).
But there is no need to argue with me. I have a very strange personal doctrine of prosperity in that I believe that there was prosperity in the garden, there will be in heaven, God rewards us with prosperity, and knows us well enough that many of us will be attracted by a promise of heaven that is filled with gold and pleasure and abundance etc. I believe that God rewards hard work. I believe its good to work hard , save a lot, sow into businesses and investments.
BUT, some people forgo a life of ease. Sometimes in the calling of God, we go through trials and tribulations. The rich people you talk about in the OT also had tough times – read about them. And some of us go through wars, and earthquakes and persecution. Paul knew how to abound and how to do without. And I don’t think he would have needed (or wanted six bathrooms).
What I don’t believe in is are prosperity preachers getting rich through the tithes and offerings , and book and DVD sales to of messages on how to get rich. And I don’t think getting rich is anywhere near the main theme of the gospel.
No, I don’t think Jesus was rich. I don’t think Paul or the Apostles lived in luxury, even though I think they had more faith and no doubt could confess as positively as anyone.
And lastly, I think the world is desperately waiting for men of God who will turn the world upside down for Jesus – and nobody can look at them and say, “ah, I see, they”re in it for the money”. Most people see money trails, with Pastors on the top and people like you at the bottom. That to me is unfortunate.
P.S I think you’ll find that most of the people here actually do know the scriptures that you quote from Malachi. Do you honestly think that Specks hasn’t read Malachi?
Just thought of some funny questions for you though. Do you think that the treasure would have spent most of his time counting the bucketloads of money that came in, and investing the huge surpluses on prime Judean real estate? Do you think the boat Jesus and the disciples went on was the envy of all the other fishermen? Do you think they have some beautiful spares in the docks too, so that everyone else saw their prosperity said ” I want what they’ve got?” Do you think Peter, James and John took it in turns to give the offering talk so that people could sow financial seeds so that the lame could get their miracles?
Can you imagine Peter taking up an offering before the sermon on the mount, and then Jesus stopping after some of the “Blessed are the”s and then saying, “Folks, I just feel that the Father is telling me to take up another offering. There is a special anointing right now. James and John are going to be holding some cisterns over there. The anointing will last only a few minutes, but the ones who come….NOW! will receive a hundred fold.”
See most people reading that will think its the most absurd thing and beyond imagination. If you don’t…well, I think I might just become a prosperity preacher myself, and be like a reverse Robin Hood and rob money from the theologically and critical thinking poor and give it to the spiritual rich. Sounds like it’s an easy racket.
@ Karin – http://www.gotquestions.org/best-life-now.html
Great find, Teddy.
“specksandplanks, I’ll pray for you that you may receive the spirit of discernment.”
One of the things that amazes me that you don’t often hear people talk about a spirit or discernment – except in pentecostal circles. And the irony is that even with all the spiritual powers of discernment, they often are shocked to find serial heavy duty adulterers, liars, and embezzlers in their midst who have carried on for years. (I could write a list, but I’m sure you all could come up with your own).
Sometimes if you have a little common sense, and feel free to ask questions, you don’t need so much pray for a super dooper discernment anointing.
pastor who cares- mate where your church I am coming. I am sick of this teaching.
It is so good that a pastor will stand up against this teaching.
It’s very worrying that most main stream pent churchs are embracing this teaching and leading thousands of souls to hell as they are saved on hype (hype without substance is nothing) and have no foundations in christ and most think being a christian is a feel good life and when things go pear shaped they leave church and never see them again due to the fact the foundation of the rock is not there, they have based thier salvation on feelings.
You would think that the gift of wisdom so freely given would be in effect here but there’s a lot of internal “spiritual voices” vying for attention in these churches. Which one do they listen to, or check against the Word?
Reality is, it is pastors that should be opposing the false prophets, apostles and teachers. That’s looking after the flock from the thieves and wolves!
Hey Karin don’t forget to post here when you wake up. Most of us here have most likely have believed in what you believe, but that little thing inside that keeps on nagging constantly until you just can’t justify away anymore and you say to yourself “this church is crap”. That’s the day when when the light turns on and you wonder how you ever fell for it. Then you realize how vulnerable we can be to false teaching and that the gospel must not be compromised, especially for $10 million homes.
Hey Paul. I am in South Africa and quite a few hours behind you.
You know, my opinion in the whole matter is as follows:
No 1: You should have a personal relationship with God.
He (the Holy Spirit) will tell you in no uncertain terms what to believe and what not. You can believe what you hear, or you can believe it to be false and discard the information. Life is about choices.
Once again, I’d like to emphasize the fact that we are not supposed to look at people as per Psalm 118:8. Therefore, if Joel Osteen, or whomever preaches the Gospel, wants to buy a $10.5 Million house, he is the one who has to take responsibility for his actions. It is a matter between him and God. Not us. We are not supposed to judge others.
I feel that God blesses people financially so that they can be a blessing to others (although this only happens if God can trust you to share the wealth). God only specifies 10% to be returned to Him (+ your offerings which is up to your own discretion). If we are faithful, we WILL receive His Blessing.
Thus, I think we should all do a lot less critisizing and a lot more praying for the Lord to give us a spirit of discernment.
“He (the Holy Spirit) will tell you in no uncertain terms what to believe and what not.”
There you have it. Just ask Karin any question you’ve ever had. Karin sounds like some pentecostal friends I used to know when we were 15.
It’s how he obtains the money. Through a false doctrine. That is discernment not judgment. Be careful of how you interpret scripture. The church is tossed to and throw with false doctrine because we’ve been taught ‘not to judge’, even when the believes or actions of some Christians clearly contradicts scripture. By the way tithing is not part of the new covenant. Having said that I don’t necessarily disagree with the idea of providing to a church organization to pay the bills and even a full time wage to a pastor. But where is the accountability.
As far as Paul was concerned he deliberately avoided making a career out of his duties to the gospel. He knew at the time there were orators traveling around making money by being silver tongued and he did not want to be seen that way. Unfortunately Joel Osteen is just that, a silver tongued orator.
I’ve got nothing against being rich and christian. The bible warns us of temptation through having riches so we should be careful. My discernment is that if your not content in $2.7 million home and you need to move into $9.6 million home then maybe you have a problem.
@Paul
You said, “My discernment is that if your not content in $2.7 million home and you need to move into $9.6 million home then maybe you have a problem.”
Unfortunately your discernment is not God’s discernment. He is the ultimate judge so basically you are judging man and his actions.
@teddy
You posted this link: http://www.gotquestions.org/best-life-now.html
It’s so interesting how people want to compare life not to how it was over 2000 years ago. Let’s see, do you really think God wants us to live like that now? You all are on the internet typing these messages, so you have computers, can afford internet access, a home to type them in, and you probably had a bed to sleep on last night. So for the first one of you here who gives up all of these things and wanders the Earth preaching the gospel, I will give you a pat on the back.
God knew these days were coming, for it was written. We were never supposed to live in the stone age forever. Don’t you think if it were totally feasible and was aligned with the scriptures, that Jesus woulda whipped up a nice Sleep Number bed for him to lay on, and ate some of the finest delicacies that hadn’t been invented yet?
Yeah, I wanna roll around Earth wearing little more than a robe and sandals telling the “Good News” of the Lord. Sure.
And…exactly how are those people who do this looked at today? They are not very effective.
But let a man who has riches and wealth reach millions of people and tell them to live their best life, which includes helping others once you have that wealth, and something is wrong with that.
And I have yet to see anyone post the “false doctrine” that he or anyone else is preaching.
I propose this: myself, Karin and others like us will live life and help others and prosper as if we live in the 21st century, while all those who compare life today with life as a nomad 2000 years ago may give up your worldly possessions, take up your cross, and live a life of poverty. Can we agree to that?
But really, we could debate all day, the fact is WE as humans do not know how we will ultimately be judged. There is a lot of stone throwing going on, but until we know for sure exactly what and when anything will happen, all we are doing is hypothesizing on what is right and what is wrong. I trust that God will fairly judge all of us, even the ones with 6 bathrooms and elevators in their homes.
Holy Events: Amen!!!
I wholeheartedfly agree with you.
Joel Osteen’s money grabbing is an unholy event.
Paul, do you know what the problem is with people like you:
“You are too busy with the THINGS of the Lord;
that you forget about the LORD of the things.”
Rather cast your eyes upward and stop looking at other people !!!
@Holy events.
I never said it was God’s. I said my discernment.
The blind leads the blind. I’m out.
Problem with [generalisation] pente/charismatics is that you cannot reason with them… [/generalisation] they have a blind faith – and that is why people support Joel Osteen and Benny Hinn – because of blind faith… or to use part of a title of a book, (by W.O.F teacher Fred K.C. Price) it is foolish and presumption.
The Pente tradition has been hijacked by charlatans and imposters who are out to make money – it has been since the earliest days – think of Aimee Semple McPherson – the prototype for all modern day Pente ministers…
@ Karina – @ Holy Events…..
Listen to this interview with Ravii Zacharias and see the deeper, richer understanding of the pain of living in this world. The reality is you “judge” in a sense, the majority of the Christian world today who live out their lives in suffering AND persecution for their very real faith. Just as Christ has said, “take up YOUR cross and follow Me”.
I would love to have my best life now and in the scheme of things, it’s pretty good but something more wonderful and beyond understanding waits in eternity.
http://religiopoliticaltalk.com/2010/08/ravi-zacharias-interviewed-by-foxs-lauren-greene-about-his-bookhas-christianity-failed-you/
Olsteen once commented on poverty and its poor reflection on the parents. My mother grew up in poverty, but her clothes were clean, etc. A pastor helped raise her and she had strong Christian beliefs. I dislike Olsteen for his prosperity gospel in that wealth is the desired result.
Also I find it interesting how so many supporters touted how awesome he was because he was not materialistic and still lived in his $331,000 house with his wife and how he does not take a salary from the Church.
Well with his new purchase of a 10.6 MILLION dollar home, he first does not need a salary so that is no sacrifice and second he shows that he too can be as materialistic as the next person.
only problems is that Olsteen denied the fact the Jesus is THE only way to God the Father and Heaven. He did it on Larry King and Bill O’Reilly. False prophet.
Overall I’d rate this as just an informative post about it to the last poster. The best pics i’ve seen of his new millionairee pad are here.. http://timothyhouston.com/2011/06/19/cribs-style-house-of-famous-pastor-joel-osteen/
The bible is just a book put together in the 4th century by rulers of the church to control the people and their money, so who cares if Osteen’s message isn’t directly following it. The positive message he conveys is all that really matters and if everyone followed just that, then this world would be a much better place.
I don’t need someone to tell me how to praise God or how to have a relationship with Him, but I do enjoy hearing a preacher who teaches a positive message and doesn’t condemn those who disagree with typical christian beliefs to hell.
By their fruits you will know them.
The one comment is right on. His bible message is different from the true gospel I know of.
He never mentions anything that would bring people down.
Which is like 90% of what is out there.
When he found a valuable pearl, he went away, sold everything he had, and bought it
He does not teach you lose everything to get to heaven. What happens is you lose your love for money and you no longer want the material things. All you want is Jesus.
Clearly Joel has decided he wants his money.
I use to attend Lakewood….was even a volunteer for a short time. I never gave much in the way of money to Lakewood…maybe a buck here and there on a holiday. I thought my time was my way of giving. Since leaving a few years back, I have been back for a visit or two. However, I’ve never felt the need to drop a buck or two in the bucket as it passed by. Looking around I could see Lakewood has done very well on it’s own. They definitely didn’t need my money to pay a bill. I was given Joels first book…..as were other volunteers. After reading a few chapters I could see it was simply his past sermons put in book form. Personally, I’ve never contributed more than a buck here and there on a holiday to Lakewood. So, hearing about Joels new mansion and all the other things he and the family enjoy, don’t bother me one bit. In my time as a member….and a volunteer…no one forced me to give any money. I see his wealth this way….if you don’t contribute to it, you have nothing to gripe about. I mean would you gripe about the salary a professional athlete earns when you have never paid to see them play? If you steer clear of the televangelist, it won’t anger you when you hear about their upscale lifestyle. Who knows, one day I may decide to go back to Lakewood for a visit….but it doesn’t mean I’m bringing my checkbook or a wad of cash with me. I give to my home church, because I know where the money is going. I don’t ever feel bad about visiting Lakewood and not giving. If people had this attitude, and realize giving is something you should enjoy doing willingly, stories like this won’t upset you. I seriously doubt the most angry people on here have ever given a dime to Joel Osteen, or Lakewood Church. So why are you so angry? I’m certainly not….nor do I feel in the least bit guilty about not giving to this particular church on the couple times a year I may decided to return for a visit. Some people really need to chill and get rid of that anger inside. Joel, I wish you good luck and hope your books continue to sell well. Just not the type of reading I enjoy. I can watch you on TV for free.
Tom,
Well said. Simply awesome.
Not one company or man ever gained wealth with out the help of the pore man. Its not about the rich giving, it’s about the poor getting whats owed from this country. Tax those rich selfish bastards who can so easily justify $100,000 cars and millions of dollars for vacation homes they rarely visit just to hide tax dollars. These kind of people are the ones who believe it is their god given right to humanity to keep such wealth to themselves and litterally burn their millions rather then to make other peoples lives blessed with electricity,food,health care, education and other basic needs of man kind. The attitde that wealthy people earned their millions because they worked any harder than a waitress, janitor, or even a nurse is insulting and rediculous. The wealthy are so eager to hold on to their millions because they live for greed and self indulgence. What can you do with 30 million that you cant do with ten million? enough is enough. Steve Jobs just passed away and guess what? He wasnt able to take his 54 BILLION dollars with him. Selfish people are truely the pore and unfortunate as far as I am concerned. I who am financialy at the poverty level have given my last dollar away as well as given my services away to make some one elses life easier. I may never be wealthy but I appreciate the simple act of humanity. This country needs to reevaluate capitalisim and place a ceiling on personal and corperate wealth. No one person should ever be free to have more then ten million dollars in assets or cash as long as there are schools to be built, mouths to be fed, and medications to be purchased. Example, Oprah Winfrey has not millions but billions of dollars that she will never spend in her life time sitting in a vault and thats not to mention the whealth of Harpo Studios and OWN network. Her idea of giving is using her name to have others give, or convincing herself that she is a teacher to the masses.Or my personal favorite the king with that direct connection with god and a hipnotic smile, Joel Osteen. Millions of dollars poring in to his hands every month but some how its just not enough for his needs as of yet. But as only the rich would say, “he works so hard for that money” ENOUGH IS ENOUGH
I recently started viewing Pastor Joel Osteen services and I was amazed at the way he talks to people. He really touches not only my heart every time I hear him speak, but also my soul and has changed me completely into a new woman because there’s absolutely 100% of sincerity in his words.
“I hear him speak, but also my soul” are you split personality? Your soul is you, your soul is your whole being, according to the original texts.
To have a soul separate to you is from greek mystical teachings and not consistent with the Bible or centuries past use of the word. For example what does S.O.S. stand for and I can tell you they were wanting their whole lives saved not some mystical portion of it.
In any case just because a speaker speaks to you is no indication of being called of God. Motivational speakers around the world touch people’s lives every day and change a good number of them. Does that make those motivational speakers ministers of God.
No of course not and I expect you know this already. So why does Osteen become called of God as opposed to those others? Is it because he calls himself Pastor, or is it because he uses biblical texts? Or is it that he was actually called of God is remains faithful to the scriptures.
The only way of knowing if a minister is called of God and speaking the truth of the Bible is not in the feelings, but by examining the Word of God and seeing if it is so.
The life of many of these motivational speakers who speak at churches (and call themselves Pastors) reveals their true hearts and is one reason the New Testament explains the requirements for a minister/preacher. Does Osteen overtly expensive lifestyle seem consistent with Biblical teachings?
Does Osteen line up, does he deviate from the Word on basic foundational teachings of repentance, salvation? These are the core and if one gets these wrong then be assured they will get a whole lot more wrong.
When I said “Pastor Joel Osteen changed my soul”, I meant he changed my way of seeing the world. I feel like I am a knew person now, and not because of Joel Osteen, but because of God that puts in Joel the correct words in Joel’s mouth to preach to millions of people around the world. Other pastors are always sending people to hell during their sermons if they “dont repent” of their sins. I’ve been in hell most of my life and I don’t appreciate other SINNERS sending me to hell.
Have you repented of your sins?
Does Osteen preach repentance is required if one is to be saved?
Read your Bible, without repentance there is no salvation.
sorry to say this but there is not substance to Joel Osteens message , the is No Christ , No Cross , no resurrection , no need for forgiveness , no atonement , no need for repentence , no need for faith in the Son of God just hear ear tickling rubbish which will lure hurting , lonely and miserable people into a false sense of worth , the reality is as you said sinners preaching to sinners , the difference is simply this `the sinners` you speak of actually know they are sinners worthy only of death and hell , they them selves understand the Grace shown by God towards us , that love that only God can offer toward us who do not deserve it , ,that love was shown on a Cross , it was for one express purpose to provide forgiveness of Sins , it opens a door that was closed , to a right relationship toward God , the Gospel never promises what Joel Osteen offers , it never promises wealth , comfortable living or a fat bank balance , what it does promise ( the Good news about Jesus Christ ) is forgiveness , peace with God and eternal Life
Yes, I’ve repented of all my sins, so I Know that when I die I will go to heaven. It is true that without repentance you can not enter the kingdom of heaven. While it is true thal Joel Osteen does not preach in the name of God or Jesus, all of his
motivational services do help people with the everyday struggles of life; it did in my case, and
it also raised my self-esteem quite a bit and I’m sure that it has helped others as well. In my case,
if I were going to Joel’s church I wouldn’t give
him one penny—-and I still think God would bess
me
You hit on such a key point when you said
“While it is true thal Joel Osteen does not preach in the name of God or Jesus”
If this is indeed the case then you have raised the key point to weed out many false ministers/teachers/prophets. Jesus told us clearly to go in His name and preach the Word. If what you say is true then it shows there that Osteen is not of God but of another spirit.
Whose name does he “preach” in then, his own? the devil? modernism?
He may be a good motivation speaker, touch many lives, and so on, but if what you say is true, he is certainly not representing God and is working against the Kingdom of God.
…………… I’ve been to other MEGA churchers where the “pastors were so MONEY HUNGRY, I mean, you can sense that inmmediately, so on purpose I would
not give them not even a nickle every church service I went to. Anyway, going back to Joel Osteen, who
wouldn’t want to live in a mansion? I DO!!
I’ve always wanted to. But there’s ways AND there’s ways! This guy is FILTHY RICH only because he
SMILES on NATIONAL TV and he talks what people
want to hear
Yep, every “sermon” of his is an advertisement for his tapes/cds/books/…
If he doesn’t directly mention them in his “sermon” then they are mentioned elsewhere.
People have claimed he is not after money because he doesn’t receive anything from the offerings and only from his merchandise. Maybe he doesn’t receive from the offerings/tithes, but he saves millions on advertising every time he “preaches” and promotes his brand name – himself. If he did not preach then he would not get the sales, simple business.
As to living in a mansion. Yea “I” would like to, but then the guilt of using that money on myself for self(ish) reasons would rise up. And the realisation that a nice home, with enough space would be a better use of that money would prick me every day. What would a few million dollars do for the Salvos who help the truly needy in our society, it might mean more of them recover and rejoin society with a new heart (ie get saved).
……………………., MONEY is the ROOT of all
EVIL, and if people continue feeding Joel’s EGO by making him RICHER than he already is, very soon he will be proclaiming in his services that HE is GOD!
thk the Lord for his word for they that received them r full so I do not live rich I live by the word of God that makes me who I’AM and that is the answer to ur questions.(and God said to Moses,I’AM THAT I’AM has sent you) that I live to His word n receive what He has for me rich n His word,live n His word is to live know Jesus n u will know ur father n Heaven to know Jesus know His word that He speaks n parables know u live day to day as they do but ur heart has to receive the word n they shall b judged for what they do do not gossip r slander anyone but to have love,kindaness, n the Grace(goodness) of God luv to all Peace n Grace b with you all. Rich is what u want it to b I live to serve God n to know that thur my life He has never left me that is rich to me His word n promise, I live with my son 16 yrs. n single mom striving to make ends meat but faithful is He that know his Gods word n trust n His word n u will c the way for He is the way the truth the life in Jesus name I pray.
thk the Lord for his word for they that received them r full so I do not live rich I live by the word of God that makes me who I’AM Teddies Soto-H and that is the answer to ur questions.(and God said to Moses,I’AM THAT I’AM has sent you) that I live to His word n receive what He has for me rich n His word,live n His word is to live know Jesus n u will know ur father n Heaven to know Jesus know His word that He speaks n parables know u live day to day as they do but ur heart has to receive the word n they shall b judged for what they do do not gossip r slander anyone but to have love,kindaness, n the Grace(goodness) of God luv to all Peace n Grace b with you all. Rich is what u want it to b I live to serve God n to know that thur my life He has never left me that is rich to me His word n promise, I live with my son 16 yrs. n single mom striving to make ends meat but faithful is He that know his Gods word n trust n His word n u will c the way for He is the way the truth the life in Jesus name I pray.
thk the Lord for his word for they that received them r full so I do not live rich I live by the word of God that makes me who I’AM Tessie Soto-H and that is the answer to ur questions.(and God said to Moses,I’AM THAT I’AM has sent you) that I live to His word n receive what He has for me rich n His word,live n His word is to live know Jesus n u will know ur father n Heaven to know Jesus know His word that He speaks n parables know u live day to day as they do but ur heart has to receive the word n they shall b judged for what they do do not gossip r slander anyone but to have love,kindaness, n the Grace(goodness) of God luv to all Peace n Grace b with you all. Rich is what u want it to b I live to serve God n to know that thur my life He has never left me that is rich to me His word n promise, I live with my son 16 yrs. n single mom striving to make ends meat but faithful is He that know his Gods word n trust n His word n u will c the way for He is the way the truth the life in Jesus name I pray.
When I moved to Houston I just didn’t understand mega churches, and after going to many churches, I gave up as I felt the congregation to be cold and fake. I prayed that I would find a vassal or a conduit to speak life into the word on away that open my heart again. Growing up baptist, I want to here a positive voice of hope in the wilderness. I went to Lakewood and found those things in Pastor Osteen and his wife, and family. I want to here and be taught the word, I chose not to judge pastor Osteen, I wish him well and think and hope he is true. If he is not he will have address one day. But to me he is hope, that things can be better and that GOD wants us to do better. I thank GOD for this man voice and message which touch me inane times of need.
All those mega churches shouldn’t be mega… they should be giving a large percentage of their money to the poor around the world. The Bible commands us to feed the hungry and help the poor, widows, orphans… not own six bathrooms… you can’t take all of that with you. What really matters to the Lord is if you are helping others and not just storing up treasures for yourself. I honestly hope the Church wakes up, because right now, they are sleeping.
I kind of agree with: Inhisluv***, pastors SHOULD
NOT keep all the $ people give to the church; although I like the way Joel Osteen preaches and his sermons are helping me in my everyday life, I still think he’s keeping WAY TOO MUCH of the money that belongs to the people in need; after all, isn’t that
what Joel Osteen messages preache?
So in other words the dirt poor morons attending lakewood church on sunday are actually paying for his MULTI-MILLION LIFESTYLE TO THE TUNE OF 10+ MILLION DOLLARS. That is not a ‘normal’ life.
Seems like a nice happy guy to me.