Xtra! reports…
“The head of a Florida-based, ex-gay Christian organization, which for decades has promoted a message of “freedom from homosexuality through the power of Jesus Christ,” told an Orlando conference that the majority of people he has met are still gay.
“I would say the majority, meaning 99.9 percent of them, have not experienced a change in their orientation or have gotten to a place where they could say that they could never be tempted, or are not tempted in some way or experience some level of same-sex attraction,” Alan Chambers told a Gay Christian Network (GCN) conference on Jan 6.
Chambers’ statement is a marked departure from one he made during an April 2004 University of California same-sex marriage debate, in which he claimed he was “one of tens of thousands of people whom have successfully changed their sexual orientation.” The statement is posted on the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) website.
“Change is possible and I am living proof. I used to be homosexual and today I am not,” Chambers said in that statement.
“To be clear,” he continued, “I did not choose my same-sex attractions nor did I willfully adopt a homosexual orientation, but my response to both, my behaviors, were a choice.”
At this month’s conference, however, Chambers clearly distanced himself from his organization’s longstanding “Change is possible” mantra.
“We’re not using change as a slogan anymore,” he said. “I’m very, very clear to say, we used ‘Change is possible’ for so many years, and it was used on me, and we used it, and the people who used it wanted it to mean something more than it did . . . but we don’t use that phrase anymore.”
“I am sorry that that is something we used,” he said when asked by a GCN conference panellist if Exodus had apologized for using the phrase over a 30-year period. “This is something we regret very much being ambiguous about, because I don’t think ambiguity with this subject is helpful, so that is something that we’re very, very sorry about.”
Wayne Besen, the founder and executive director of Truth Wins Out, a non-profit organization that challenges ex-gay ministries, is skeptical of Chambers’ sincerity.
“This is somebody who is so serially dishonest, and changes what he says so frequently, his words are essentially meaningless,” Besen alleges. “We’re gratified that he has confirmed what we’ve been saying since the founding of our group in 2006: that efforts to change are ineffective.”
Besen feels the big test that will determine if Chambers’ views have really evolved will come on Feb 18. That’s when Exodus will stage one of its signature Love Won Out conferences in Atlanta, Georgia.
“Will there be a change in the divisive rhetoric?” Besen asks. “If the message is exactly the same as all the other Love Won Outs, Mr Chambers was just, as he tends to do, morphing his message to fit his audience, rather than legitimate,” he alleges. “What happens when he gets in front of either a red-meat crowd of conservatives or parents who are paying his salary to help their kids try to change?”
Tailoring messages to specific groups is nearly impossible in the contemporary communications landscape, Besen points out. “The internet’s been invented,” he quips. “You can’t do that anymore. The whole world hears you.”
For Besen, there’s a larger question at play.
“If 99.9 percent of people don’t change — it’s probably 100 percent — why is Exodus still in business? It seems to me that if they’re not effective at praying the gay away, as they once promised . . . why?”
Chambers’ executive assistant, Chris Stump, told Xtra on Jan 19 that neither Chambers nor Exodus vice-president Jeff Buchanan were available for comment.
Stump says Chambers will be “writing something for our website on his experience [at GCN]. I’m just not sure when that’s going to be up, hopefully sometime next week. Honestly, that’s the best we can do right now.”
Stump says he doesn’t know if Chambers plans to repeat his remarks at the Love Won Out conference next month.
Exodus International’s website still promotes titles like Straight Answers: Exposing the Myths and Facts about Homosexuality from its Love Won Out series and purports to help young people “learn the truth to help either themselves or their friends who may be tempted by same-sex desires.”
Conference recordings, like “The Power of Praying for Your SSA Children,” are also available for purchase. Described as a workshop, it provides “steps on how to partner with God to see His will done in the lives of our children affected by same-sex attraction.”
And the mission of the organization’s student ministries still reads, “Mobilizing the body of Christ to minister grace and truth to a world impacted by homosexuality.”
Besen isn’t taking any chances. He says his organization will partner with GetEqual, an American queer advocacy group, to counter Atlanta’s Love Won Out conference next month with a seminar and protests.”
From http://www.xtra.ca/public/Vancouver/Exgay_leader_admits_changing_sexuality_is_unlikely-11388.aspx
Does that mean any deeply entrenched sinful behaviour is impossible to change?
Sexual orientation is part of a person but it does not define who they are. It is innate like being blue eyed or being left handed.
No, arrogance and self-righteousness can be overcome with hard work and perseverance. So there’s still hope for you.
I read somewhere where Alan Chambers himself admitted that he still had same sex attractions but choose not to act on them because of his marriage.
I don’t know why this isn’t the norm. Many hetereosexuals are faithful and know how to defeat urges for for their marriage sake and their belief in God. The same applies to gays they can still be faithful to God by learning to overcome their urges.
We are all tempted over many things but to choose to be righteous is the key.
So, in other words, heterosexuals get to experience loving, committed relationships with another partner, but gays must live out their lives in lonely celibacy. There’s Christian compassion for you.
The point is he has not overcome the urges, he still has them. This proves the point that sexual orientation is innate and not learned. No one taught you how to be heterosexual, it came naturally. Why can’t we accept the fact that people are different and move on from there.
“If 99.9 percent of people don’t change — it’s probably 100 percent — why is Exodus still in business? It seems to me that if they’re not effective at praying the gay away, as they once promised . . . why?”
Yep. That’s the million dollar question that Christian leaders, and conservative Christians need to address.
“Many hetereosexuals are faithful and know how to defeat urges for for their marriage sake and their belief in God. The same applies to gays they can still be faithful to God by learning to overcome their urges.”
But the question still remains. It’s not fair then is it. I can be heterosexual and still express myself sexually by getting married. There’s always the possibility of the pleasure of marital sex. But we’ve just heard someone involved in gay ministry say that the orientation hasn’t changed. So with our orthodox view, committed gay Christians have no possibility of ever enjoying themselves sexually without feeling like they are sinning.
(Yeah, I know – this sounds strange coming from SM aka machoman and churchman, but
this statement from this guy needs to be talked about). Are their NO testimonies of people who came to Christ, and either immediately or EVENTUALLY felt attracted romantically and sexually to the opposite sex in the way they used to with their own gender? i.e., Can sexual orientation be changed or not}
PS I am not for changing marriage laws and still am not convinced of the scriptural acceptability of gay couples etc ……but, yeah, the church needs to talk about this.
Thanks for posting the article.
I want to give you credit, SM for being willing to at least listen to and try to understand the other side of the argument. It shows an honest effort to question old assumptions. We’ve locked horns in the past, but I do want to acknowledge your efforts.
I didn’t know you were Churchman/Machoman. Congratulations on coming out.
Well said SM.
Really? Sorry about that. I thought everyone knew. I was called a sad little man ,and I called myself that, then later sad man , then later I got sick of posting.
So it wasn’t intentional. Didn’t I sound the same…lol?
Back to the topic, like I said, I’m not ready to change my theology, but I think we need to listen. Once again …I feel like I’m in no man’s land.
“coming out”….I like that!
SM, I think a lot of us are there. So welcome to uncertainty.
I used to be uncertain, now I’m not so sure.
Having urges do not mean you can’t control them. There have been many married people who have had strong urges and temptations and still walked away from those feelings towards others.
A gay believer is in the same position as a young christian who has developing hormones but must stay celibate.
What about unmarried heterosexual christians who have been desperate to marry but have not found a partner yet lived their whole lives as single.
What about heterosexuals who have gone decades with little or no sex because of their health or their spouses bad health.
What about imprisoned christians in persecuted nations do they whine how they are missing out on sex when some have spend may years even decades in prison.
Many heterosexual believers have been celibate for 2000 years for a variety of reasons and yet have not tried to change the rules to justify immoral sex.
Now we come to the modern age and we have gays who expect the church to bow down to their desires because they want to have sex yet myriads of heterosexuals have gone without marriage and sex to stay faithful to God for 2000 years.
This whole argument smacks of total selfish indulgence to justify one group of people and they expect God’s laws to bow to their carnal desires.
It aint gonna happen with real believers only the lukewarm ones will capitulate and God will never accept gay sex.
God accepts gay believers who choose to stay celibate and remain dedicated to him.
You’ve certainly picked the right tag for yourself, Loser Bill.
Loser bill are you married also have you ever been celibate for any length of time
Why must gay people be celebate to be acceptable to Christians. Let me tell you my story, I am a lesbian who is married and my husband is not in the best of health and has been told by his doctor that he may have less than 3 years or so to live. I intend to stay with him until he dies. After his death, I will then start dating women, but not before because at this time, I do not want any other relationship. One thing that I am planning to do after his death, to go on a lesbian cruise to begin my life as active lesbian.
You are free to do whatever you want it is your choice but don’t think God will accept your lifestyle. Just be honest enough to say I want to sin and do my thing and who cares what God thinks.
BTW practising homosexuals like all other immoral people will end up in hell.
If you are a christian premeditating an actual lifestyle of sin then that puts severe doubt on the sincerity and authenticity of your “faith”.
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.
(1 John 3:4-10 ESV)
timqz
Will you deny sex for those who have urges for 12 year olds.
What should they do and must they remain celibate are you so compassionless
That is a foul, sick argument, “Loser Bill”. Gays are not pederasts. That is something altogether different. Once more, you’ve confirmed what I already suspected: nobody does “hate” as well as a homophobic evangelical”‘Christian”. Whatever hell you’re convinced I’m going to can’t be nearly as bad as the one you live in now: a bitter, obviously unhappy man that has to engage in queer bashing from time to time to escape his miserable excuse of a life. You even identify yourself as a “loser”. So you do get points for a certain level of self awareness.
Loser Bill, what you are talking about is child molestation, which is a crime because the victim is below the age of consent. This is different from having a gay or lesbian relationship with someone who is over 18 years of age and willingly chooses to be in a relationship.
Choosing a gay lifestyle may no longer be sin to the world but it is still sin to God no matter how many abusive terms gays & their fans throw at people who disagree.
Do you really think God is scared of being called homophobic or whatever.
Face the reality you can choose any lifestyle on this earth and live free but you will answer for it in eternity and all the excuses will be meaningless before God.
BTW I am not against gays who choose celibacy and who have those inclinations.
Gays can still be Christian as long as they remain celibate .
So go ahead and express all the so called love you have but there is an eternal price that you will regret.
The reason why so called Christian gays remain celebate is because they are scared to death of getting into a relationship with the opposite sex because they do not have any feelings for them. They may do like I did, fake enjoyment of sex but in reality it did not work because I had no attraction to men sexually. It won’t take long for their partner/spouse to figure this out and end the relationship. I used to ask myself why I do not like sex. It took me a long time to realize that I am attracted to women, in fact, I am not attracted at all to the male body. I have not had any relationships with a woman to honor my marriage vows. My husband and I have been celebate for years and I do not miss the sex at all.
Crystal, I’m sorry you’ve had to go through all of that, and it’s very moving that you intend to be there for your husband till the very in. You sound like a very decent person, and I hope you do get a chance to find love afterwards. However, I don’t think you’re going to be able to convince Loser Bill to see things your way. For some people, hatred is the only motivating force that propels them through life. Loser Bill’s “Christianity” is a mockery to what Christ really taught, but it seems like he needs his hate in order to find the energy to get out of bed in the morning. Truly sad.
Thanks for the kind words and I agree with you. People like Loser Bill cannot understand logic and reality. I agree with you that I will not convince him and he will not convince me with his arguments. This like this are not black and white but there are many shades of gray
Loser Bill writes “BTW practising homosexuals like all other immoral people will end up in hel”
Does this mean that the 60% of men in Church who look at pornography regularly are alos destined for hell……?
“These aren’t convicted pedophiles or registered sex offenders. They are churchgoers, businessmen, and seemingly model husbands. Throughout the country, there are men by the millions sitting comfortably in church pews every Sunday who haven’t told anyone about their sexual addiction. But the men in this room have come to terms with their own powerlessness over destructive sexual habits.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/march/18.28.html
That article also estimates that 8 percent of adult men and 3 percent of adult women become sexually addicted at some point in their lives. That is at some point, even if for a week/month and some of those are classed that way because another (wife maybe) think they want a little too much marital relations. There is some interesting reading on the matter and what some groups consider as a sex addiction.
I can name 2 men (father&son) in the Old Testament that would be considered in those terms sex addicts. Instead of looking (at pictures) these 2 men put feet to their looking and joined with many hundreds of women, many of whom they married to satisfy “no sex outside of marriage” and many they had as “kept” partners, without marrying. One of the two men actually lusted and had the other woman’s husband killed so he could marry the other man’s wife whom he lusted after.
Yes, and they will join the 40% of men who are liars.
Even though Loser Bill is incorrect in his assertion that any gay Christian who engages in sexual relations with someone of the same sex will go to hell (no born again believer will go to hell, although they may live it here on earth!), he is correct in his understanding of the sin of homosexuality as being condemned by God.
Crystal and timqz are trying to justify what they are doing by labelling those who take the biblical stance as being “hateful”, but let me ask you, why is believing what scripture says about homosexuality (ie it is an abomination and sinfull) equated with hatefulness?
Want to live the gay lifestyle? Knock yourself out, but don’t expect us bible believing Christians to stand by approvingly.
I, nor many other LGBT people are not asking for your approval of our lifestyle. Besides, I could care less how you live as long as you do not harm anyone.
The mockery are those who are destroying God’s standards and bringing them into the gutter. God is merciful and forgives sin but we still have to call it sin. Gay sex is sin and no matter how many times people call it ‘love’ it doesn’t change the fact it is sin.
It is no different to an adulterer who cheats on his wife and says he loves his mistress.
Crystal I actually admire you for your stance in supporting your sick husband.
Please do not throw your faith away by turning to lesbianism.
Sex is not as important as a living faith with Jesus Christ. Modern society worships sex and it will destroy countless lives at the end.
There is a film being released in February 2012 which has interviews with Australians who went through ex gay programs .
It has interviews with Anthony Venn Brown who went through Australia’s first ex gay program in 1972 , Ron Brookman and many other people .
Here is a link to to the trailer
So what about Sy Rogers – http://syrogers.com/index.html
He came ot … then wemt back in …. and is now a raving heterosexual – travelling the world talking about it. Surely, it IS possible
Or he doesn’t have a clear preference and decided there is more money in being Hetero and doing the preaching/singing circuit.
There will always be those who swing either way. Some keep swinging and some pick one and stick to it. Maybe this Sy Rogers is one of those people.
I never heard of the guy until today. Looked at his website and found no mention of him being “Gay” at any time. But I did see a ton of self promotion and little in the way of Christlikeness. Really that site is all promotion and little/none on sharing Christ, but I guess that is the way of many involved in the “mega” or Hill$ong church scene.
From what I understand, Sy Rogers was a male to female transsexual. He looks very feminine and from what I have heard that he was going to have a sex change operation but became a Christian. I have seen pictures of him and his wife and they look like a lesbian couple. But of course the preachers that hire home can’t see that.
That does explain his appearance. It did look “different”
Crystal, does your husband know all that?
yes, he knows that I am a lesbian. He told me he has known that for years. It has taken me years to accept what I am.
If anyone can listen to Sy Rogers and tell me he is telling the truth? There is no way – either he wasn’t homosexual adn he is lying in the vein of Mike Warnke – or he was gay and still is and is hiding behind the veil of married heterosexual bliss in order to live with his new persona
he was gay and still is and is hiding behind the veil of married heterosexual bliss in order to live with his new persona.
eg Ray Boltz
I believe that Ray Boltz and his wife are divorced. His wife is on the board of Soulforce, which is a gay Christian organization in the US.
Ray Boltz came out in 2004 and was immediatelt castigated by fans, Christian recording companis, churches.
This song’s for you guys struggling with how God made you. God bless and may you find peace in who you are and who He is.
Thank you Bones, that was such a beautiful song. I remember the same thing happened to Jennifer Knapp, when she came out. Let us love more and hate less.
People can have all the sex and gay sex they want just don’t try to tell me that God thinks its acceptable. Those who actually call themselves Christians and reject the message that sexual immorality will send you to hell are deceived. You are in reality doing satan’s work and God will judge you for your evil.
And I am not talking about Christians falling or sinning as no ones is perfect but a deliberate choice of practising immoral behaviour and not having any conscience over it.
History has shown you can be a Christian and torture and murder other people including other believers, hold antisemitic and racist views, own slaves, rip off the poor, lie and produce deliberate false evidence and yet you’re up in arms about Christians loving other members of the same sex.
Something’s not right there.
Greg and others
Sy was probably not gay but transgender which is something very different
There’s a link to an article here written by Venn Brown which is food for thought
http://gayambassador.blogspot.com/2010/10/sy-rogers-story.html
Katharine
Crystal. you amaze me.
I was thinking the same thing.
@Timqz, I always listened. But thanks for the kind words.
@ Crystal, by amazed, I meant in a good sense.
So…Sy Rogers is a lesbian?