Martina Navratilova writes in the Herald Sun…
“Dear Margaret,
Do you remember the first time we were on the same court?
I sure do. It was at Wimbledon. I was about 17. You went to hit some serves on the clay court out back, and I helped you pick up your balls. I remember looking up to you. You were one of my role models, and I felt so privileged to be on the same court with you, even as your ball girl.
I think that is why it truly pains me now that we can’t see eye to eye. And while I still admire all your accomplishments on the court, I’m disappointed by your inability to acknowledge me as your equal off the court.
There is so much I would like to say here but so little space, so I will try to be brief.
Giving gays and lesbians the right to marry isn’t just a gay rights issue; it is a human rights issue. It is about equal rights and protection under the law for all human beings. Quite simply, it is the right thing to do. It most certainly is a secular issue and not a religious one.
One does not need to be a Christian in order to fall in love and want to marry, straight or gay, otherwise atheists would not be allowed to marry, right? Marriage can be and often is a religious celebration but legally speaking, it is a contract between two people who promise to love each other.
In the United States there are more than 1000 different protection laws that automatically apply once a couple is legally married, so to deny a couple these rights based solely on their gender is discrimination, pure and simple.
Margaret, you say children need a father and a mother and that anything else is not acceptable. Well, giving gay and lesbian couples the right to marry affords their children, both current and future, equal protection under the law.
If our society is about strong families, then why not give these gay families, which have always existed and will continue to exist, the same rights and opportunities that straight couples have always had? Should the children in these families suffer emotionally and also financially from this injustice?
You frame the whole gay issue in religious terms and quote the Bible. While I am not a theologian, I do know these same Bibles have been used in the past to justify slavery, to deny men of colour the right to vote, to deny women the right to vote and to try to deny inter-racial couples the right to marry.
As we all now know, the Bible was wrong on these issues and perhaps more importantly, fundamentalists have been on the wrong side of history over and over again; it seems to me they are on the wrong side when it comes to equal rights for gays and lesbians.
You say it is a choice to be gay; do you mean to say you had feelings for women as well as men and chose men? That might explain your certainty on the issue. The feelings one has for either gender are most certainly not a choice, they simply are; the butterflies that hit you in the gut are not a choice, they are just there. The choice is whether or not one acts on such feelings.
People (the straight ones) often ask: Why are people gay? I say, well, why are people straight? There is no straight answer here, so to speak. Human sexuality is multi-faceted, complex and quite fluid; genes play a part as well. How much? Who knows? But that’s not really the point anyway.
Perhaps of the many things you said in your opposition to granting same-sex marriage rights was your statement that Australia is in moral decline and giving us equal rights would further this decline, basically labelling us immoral.
That one really hurts. I am trying to figure out which period in Australia’s history you would like to go back to. Maybe it was when the convicts first were shipped here or perhaps it was when wealthy landowners had as many as four votes each, or when women couldn’t vote at all, or when women couldn’t be pastors.
I really have a hard time seeing how two people who love each other and want to affirm that love by certifying their commitment to each other by getting married are acting immorally. Loving another human being is immoral? Really?
I see Australia as one of the best countries in the world, a democracy that strives to be just, a nation that has historically been ahead of most of the world when it comes to human rights, and thus, a fantastic place in which to live. Come to think of it, why am I not living here? I mean, other than the speed cameras, what’s not to love?”
Martina is right. There are in fact over 1300 rights that married couples get that same sex couples do not get. Many of these are tax related but others involve government benefits.I cannot speak for Australia as to whether gays and lesbians couples get the same rights as heterosexual couples.There are many gay and lesbian couples who have children. These children are entitled to the same rights and privledges that those with married heterosexual have.
I wonder if anyone else has read a double entendre into Martina’s opening question, i.e. by using ‘court’ as a metaphor, suggesting that Margaret once ‘played for the same team’? Given that Martina then directly confronts MC about repressing her feelings, it’s a great way to open the letter. Game, set and match to Martina.
So let me get this straight…. I love lying, I don’t see anything wrong with it, Im not hurting anyone. I should be allow to lie when I like to whom I like about whatever I like, every human should have the right to lie. Yet, we don’t have this right… if we lie to the police we are arrested, if we lie to a judge, sent to jail (ask Marcus Einfeld). Its not a human rights issue, its a moral issue. God as the moral law giver declare lying to be sinful, the same with adultery and homosexuality – the government, designed and commisioned by God is there to uphold the moral law.
Lying isn’t hurting anyone?
You lost me right there.
the government, designed and commisioned by God is there to uphold the moral law.
Do you mean like Sharia?
When was someone last arrested for blasphemy or idolatry (which God specifically hated)?
Perhaps of the many things you said in your opposition to granting same-sex marriage rights was your statement that Australia is in moral decline and giving us equal rights would further this decline, basically labelling us immoral.
That one really hurts. I am trying to figure out which period in Australia’s history you would like to go back to. Maybe it was when the convicts first were shipped here or perhaps it was when wealthy landowners had as many as four votes each, or when women couldn’t vote at all, or when women couldn’t be pastors.
Add in the treatment of Aborigines, the Great Depression.
Game, Set and Match to Miss Navratilova.
I’m not convinced by Margaret Court using the Constitution or Australia’s history to make her case is the best argument. The scriptures stand on their own regarding moral issues and sexuality. God’s Word will never pass away no matter what sinful man tries to do.
So ask yourself do you want to be on the winning side for eternity or have some minor victories on this earth thinking somehow God is impressed.
If any past dead gay person practising wilful sexual immorality could speak now they would shout from the rooftops. STOP THIS MADNESS ,DO NOT SIN AGAINST GOD AS THE CONSEQUENCES ARE HORRIFIC.
100% of them would love to have a second chance to come back to earth and live for God.
I personally do not think that the LGBT community is responsible for the moral decline in Australia. The heterosexuals have messed up too. What about marriage? how many heterosexual couples have been divorced and remarried many times. Do they even care what this does to their children?
yep – Game, Set and Match to Miss Navratilova.
I wrote to Mrs Court a week ago enquiring how she is going to “return serve” (Im loving these tennis metaphors) when it will be inevitably pointed out how she is biting the same liberal hand that put her behind a pulpit.
One of the primary theological arguments that has allowed women behind pulpits is reductionistic reading and interpretation of clear passages of scripture about the qualifications of a “pastor” (you know – the masculine noun with no feminine equivalent) and the prohibition of women teaching and exercising authority over men in the church. Of course Margaret would say that such attitudes were “time and culturally constrained” and were not intended to continue in perpetuity………..well,….THE SAME argument (among others) is set forth for those other passages of scripture which appear to prohibit and condemn the practice of homosexuality and the design of the institution of marriage.
Oh well…..
I wonder if Martina ever sneeked a peek up Margaret’s kilt as she picked up those balls
Moral Decline? or fearmongering?
Instead of lies we see more truth in society.
Instead of lying in marriage that alls OK 75 years ago, they are truthful and divorce. The children are better off without the fighting, hate and abuse.
Instead of “young adults” sneaking off to have relations, lying that they are not. Instead of teens going to visit grandparents for 9 months, they are truthful about their activities.
Instead of “gays” “hiding in the closet” they can be truthful with legal protection.
What of the 60′s & 70′s free sex era, what of the physical crime rates on the decline, hardly the picture of moral decline. Lets not talk of the reduction of pregnancies in the aftermath of soldiers “liberating” towns that occurred early last century and previously. (still occurs but reduced I gather from reports)
Rather I see a minor increase in morals with humans still doing what they have done for centuries but being truthful rather than lying. Its more in the open, reported upon and recorded rather than hushed up.
Old Dude
I don’t know what planet you live on but murders in Australia have skyrocketed as have other violent crime in the last 20 years.
What about car theft and stealing in general???
Not to mention drug abuse and all the evils that has generated
Good grief man
This planet,
http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/productsbyCatalogue/669C5A997EAED891CA2568A900139405/
Example
In 2005 the victimisation prevalence rate for household crime was 6.2%, compared to 8.9% in 2002. Comparisons with 2002 for all selected types of household crime showed statistically significant decreases in the prevalence rates for:
break-in, where the victimisation rate in 2005 was 3.3% compared with 4.7% in 2002
attempted break-in, where the victimisation rate in 2005 was 2.6% compared with 3.4% in 2002
motor vehicle theft, where the victimisation rate in 2005 was 1.0% compared with 1.8% in 2002.
Personal robbery
For most states and territories, there was little change in robbery victimisation prevalence rates between 2002 and 2005. Statistically significant decreases in robbery victimisation rates did however occur in:
New South Wales (0.4% in 2005 compared with 1.0% in 2002)
Victoria (0.2% in 2005 compared with 0.5% in 2002).
But hey don’t let facts interfere with fearmongering
And
Assault victimisation rates for most states and territories remained relatively stable from 2002 to 2005. Changes of note were:
a decrease in Victoria to 4.1% in 2005 from 4.7% in 2002
although one state did report an increase and that was QLD, but overall slightly lower for Australia
So will you acknowledge the Australian bureau of Statistics as a valid reliable source of information. And maybe you will think twice when accusing me of being stupid.
Oh and the USA has noted over two decades, like Australia a decrease in crime rates.
Yeah – what about murder and car theft and stealing huh – all because gays love each other! Bastards – hunt them down – kill them – burn them at the stake!
Loser Bill
I used to work for a crime organisation – the rate of murder has remained constant in Australia for over 100 years .
I believe the rate of assault and theft has increased
See above and look through the ABS site assault and theft has decreased
The ABS agrees with you Anonymous concerning the murder rate.
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/4524A092E30E4486CA2569DE00256331
Concerning Murder rates
While there has been remarkable stability in the twentieth century, and while the differences among the States are negligible, this has not always been the case. During the first hundred years of settlement, homicide rates were much higher and only fell to ‘modern’ levels after about 1880.
But they did note there were fluctuations over the 20th century. And Bill picked the low to the high in a century of relative sameness
In 1915 in Australia, the homicide rate was 1.8 per 100,000 population. In 1998 it was 1.6 per 100,000. During the intervening years it hit a low of 0.8 in 1941 and a high of 2.4 in 1988.
The annual homicide rates in Australia from 1915 to 1998 are displayed in graph C8.10 below. There was a long-term decline during the first half of the twentieth century, with the homicide rate being the lowest during the period of World War II (1939-1945). The rate then increased substantially to a plateau of about 1.5 per 100,000 population in the 1950s and 1960s. An upward trend occurred during the 1970s, reaching the level of around 2.0 per 100,000 population at the end of that decade. Since then, the rate has remained relatively stable, except for two temporary fluctuations in the 1980s. One of those temporary fluctuations resulted in the highest homicide rate recorded in Australia (rate of 2.4 per 100,000 population in 1988). This is more than double the rate observed in 1950.
and its at 1.3 in 2007. Hardly out of control or an ever increasing trend.
I think the introduction to the ABS report sums it up nicely
Australia was a less violent society at the end of the twentieth century than it was at the end of the nineteenth or eighteenth centuries. Violence and theft have been part of human interaction for all of recorded history, ……
Bill it is the politicians and some Christian groups that love to promote the idea that crime, and especially violent crime is increasing out of hand. It is not surprising that you thought I was crazy, but anyone who has looked into these things realise that they are lying when making such claims.
I just went to the ABS and found crime and robbery between 1993 to 1999 was a big increase.
My main argument was trying to look at crime going back to 70-80 years ago and look at each decade and you see a DEFINITE increase with obvious dips over that time.
Even police officers say crime in most forms have increased over the years
Old dude your stats were over 3 years which means nothing
Can you reference that please, I am trying to find figures to support your report, I wish to be educated
I have found differences in surveys that resulted in different rates due to differences in exactly what is being tallied.
Oh and my stats given was am example and flies contrary to what is being claimed by people. I will be interested when the ABS releases the latest stats.
The trend over 20+ years is not what many claim them to be.
My main argument was trying to look at crime going back to 70-80 years ago and look at each decade and you see a DEFINITE increase with obvious dips over that time.
Ummmm. There were a lot less people back then, Bill. Especially after World War One and the Spanish Flu Epidemic which the soldiers bought back.
There were less than 3 million blokes in 1914 (out of approximately 5 million) and over 400 000 served their country. Of these 65% were casualties of war. Another 12000 were killed in the Spanish Flu epidemic
The population of Australia now is just under 23 million. More people = more crime.
It’s also interesting how Australia began as opposed to the US. When the pilgrims disembarked the Mayflower, they prayed and gave thanks to God.
When our ancestors left their convict ships, there was a drunken orgy. Throughout the 1790s and 1800s there was a lament by church people about the morals of those in Australian society. It was a tough life, in a hard land, for convict, soldier and settler. And you had to survive. And there were reasons why boys like the Kelly Gang were admired and glorified.
Yet we hear how the sky is falling because gays might be allowed to marry. Aussies have been through lots worse and not only survived, but flourished.
Another reason for differences in rates from 100 years ago to today are differences in what constitutes an offence. For instance it is now (or about to be gazetted) a criminal offence to have a laser pointer of a power rating of over 1mW. It is a firearms offence to have one and (included in assault) to use it (no matter how).
At one time it was considered that a husband could not sexually assault his wife. He could only be charged with assault if he physically harmed her. Now correctly he can be. Even today it is considered unlikely/impossible for the wife to sexually assault the husband.
So law changes have also seen some decreases (100 years ago) in the crime rate, and in the last 20-30 years there have been a number of laws introduced (eg firearms/domestic violence) that have put a upwards pressure on the rates. The Domestic violence put major upwards pressure on rates, but the general trend downwards has evened it out while still showing a overall decrease.
And as Bill pointed out reporting rates on some/many crimes has increased and yet the rates of crimes have not because traditionally well reported crimes have decreased to cover it.
Aaah yes of course. Who can forget where the saying the “rule of thumb” came from.
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/4524A092E30E4486CA2569DE00256331
This notes that 1993-1999 was against the trend for robbery and 1999 was the first year in a spate of 7 that robbery decreased again.
Its more like the 1993-1999 was the change in tend being used to promote crime increasing over decades.
Bill you said in the post above
My main argument was trying to look at crime going back to 70-80 years ago
I thought that it was my post that talked of crime rates and that was decreasing over last 20 years.
Then you said in your first post on crime rates
Old Dude
I don’t know what planet you live on but murders in Australia have skyrocketed as have other violent crime in the last 20 years.
So which is it Bill 20 years or 70-80 years????????????????
Old Dude it’s interesting you say Christian groups. I am LISTENING to normal aussies on the radio, tv and public who are saying it is increasing.
They call talkback they write to the papers etc etc etc
Just found a stat on murders between 1950 and 1996. Nearly a double fold increase
From 1.2 in 1950 to 2 per 100,000 people
As suspected there has been a general climb in the scale since WW2 with some dips which people love to concentrate on and use for their own bias
Reference please
I did find http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/homicide.aspx
Over the past 18 years (1 July 1989 to 30 June 2007), the rate* of homicide incidents decreased from 1.9 in 1990-91 and 1992-93 to the second-lowest recorded rate, of 1.3, in 2006-07. *rate per 100,000 population.
Again over last 20 years, it has been decreasing.
Common sense please. Population of Australia has increased = crime increase.
These are rates Bill and myself have been using.
But you are right Bones, much scaremongering uses actual numbers rather than rates.
From Aic.gov.au
Quote – Reported sexual assaults have increased by 51 percent since 1995, at an average of four percent each year
Of course reported sexual assaults have increased.
1) the laws changed to include more domestic violence
2) support groups were introduced since 1990 with the directive to encourage people to report sexual crime. They are in the last couple of years realising that males do not report sexual assault against them in a marriage. So Bill more room for increasing the reporting rate
3) the internet has been instrumental in helping victims o sexual crime to report that crime.
4) Sexual Harassment laws were introduced during this time and strengthened over this time.
and so on.
Not to mention cases like child abuse were rarely reported. Whereas now it is mandatory for professionals (medical and educational) to report if they have suspicions. That wasn’t the case in the past.
Re your crime debate, I don’t think any reasonable person would say that Australia is a safer place to live than 30, 50, 70 years ago.
Don’t know about that. The 70s was a scary time for my family so much so that Dad bought a gun for self defence and used to put it under the drivers seat of our car when travelling.
Is the office of the Australian Bureau of Statistics sane enough for you?
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/4524A092E30E4486CA2569DE00256331
Introduction to report
Australia was a less violent society at the end of the twentieth century than it was at the end of the nineteenth or eighteenth centuries. Violence and theft have been part of human interaction for all of recorded history, ……
The Martina vs Margaret duel just covers all the same old arguments.
Kids committing crime
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/kids-getting-away-with-serious-crimes-including-rape-and-arson/story-fn7x8me2-1226256267191
Ho hum, nothing new there. Happened through history. Happened when I was a kid, when my parents were kids. Hushed up then as it is now.
Bill, will you at least recognise the ABS and their report that the 20th century ended as a less violent place than when it began. I know it goes against the popular urban myth that the world is getting more violent every year.
Old Dude
So I am to ignore the overwhelming evidence of more young people taking drugs or is that a myth also
And my chaplain friend in a secular school of over 1200 kids who even the secular teachers acknowledge things have gotten worse.
How many people do you know who are in the coal face of societies troubles because they don’t say what you say.
Sorry I have too many contacts and personal experience to deny the obvious
does this sound familiar?
Nowadays…parents themselves make no effort to train their little ones in goodness and self-control; they grow up in an atmosphere of laxity and pertness, in which they come gradually to lose all sense of shame, and all respect both for themselves and for other people.”
This was Tacitus all the way back in the late 1st or early 2nd Century. I think Plato had similar things to say about children. I do not consider there to be more crime and less safety than in years gone by – in fact if anything life is much more safe no, however the perception of safety and morality does not sell papers or get people elected does it?
Maragret Court is wrong that we are in moral decline and Martina has written a very good letter. I only had one thing I didn;t like about her letter, I doubt that Margaret Court does not consider Martina her ‘equal’ off the court, I am certain that Margaret would have nothing but respect for Martina as a person. Margaret’s opinion of her sexuality being a choice is quite obviously [although it would seem not so obvious to many on this blog] wrong.
You have hearsay, formulated by subjective experience. That is they have a certain past, grow up and move into another area of life. In that new area they experience a different part of society.
For instance teachers grow up as kids in a certain environment with limited exposure to the wider community. They then become teachers and then experience kids from numerous walks of life and as time goes on they accumulate more and more bad situations that they become aware of.
Now the ABS and Crime Authorities take actual, reported and survey of the community and compile statistics and reports from that information. A little more widespread than yours or my sphere of experiences and “friends experiences”.
Sorry Bill I will take the ABS over your unverified comments any day.
BTW After over 1/2 a century of living in this country and seeing news reports of violence reducing over that time seem to line up with the ABS. Drug taking in the 60′s ands 70′s was a lot worse then today, and in spite of the news media looking for bad news it does not compare to the likes of the 70′s.
Take music festivals where drug use was almost universal, today they are policed and even the organisers will evict ticket holders who are found doing drugs. As always its still a dangerous world out there if one is not careful, but I will not take hearsay that its worse than 30,40,50 years ago. And I have official statistics, official community surveys they take, and living through many decades to support that view.
BTW. I too have friends, know teachers (christian/secular), doctors, lawyers, and while the urban myth is present they don’t report as your friends do. All my kids/grandkids experienced/saw less bullying with each generation, but today the news media looking for bad news has to find something. Its certainly not perfect, I am not saying that. Just its less.
Basically Bill, the world is not yet “going to the dogs”, “the great decline” is yet to come and I do feel safer today than I did in say the 70′s.
Wow, I’m amazed. Don’t know anyone besides Old Dude and Bones who think it’s safer now than 50 years ago.
Up in the beautiful state people didn’t even lock their doors.
Oh I get it. Probably QLD was safe until southerners slowly started invading.
QLD was definitely safer 50 years ago. Ask anyone.
Couple of things to consider in evaluating this.
50++ years ago in Queensland in the inner suburbs of Brisbane, my parents were as concerned as I am today in the inner suburbs of break and enter. But that is subjective and not based on hard cold facts of crime rates.
Remember that to measure crime rates and safety you must consider the increase in population. Brisbane and surrounds population now is many times more now than in the 50′s, so there will be numerical more crime than in the 50′s, but the rate per 100,000 people has actually reduced.
Certain suburbs are safer than others. For example in the 70′s and 80′s Inala was not safe at all compared to other suburbs like The Gap. But now the crime rate in Inala is lower than many others. Conditions in certain areas change with the changing (type of) population, but overall the ABS figures don’t lie.
Murder in 1950 was at an almost record low after the war and by 1960 had risen significantly till the 80′s and now is almost as low as the figures of 1950. Figures given in previous posts.
The whole issue here is that rather than the crime rates rising indicating a degeneration of society, we actually see the rate fluctuate and a general trend downwards. over the generations.
If I were to listen to Bill then I would think that massive increases in crime rates were occurring in only 7 years with murder rates doubling in less than a generation. This would mean that it will not be long before society collapses due to crime rate alone.
me..I do as well
SM
I agree with you even non christians believe things are worse overall
I
So the ABS is lying?
If you can show that then I will accept your anecdotal evidence.
I agree with you even non christians believe things are worse overall
Did you think about that?
When exactly would you have liked to live in Australia’s history?
You’d much rather have:
climbed ashore at Gallipoli?
climbed and fought the Kokoda track?
watched your children die from flu and infection?
lived on the street in the Depression?
seen Aborigines treated as non-citizens?
worked for peanuts for wealthy landowners?
Fact is we’ve got it good. Better than at any time in the past.
Comments like that are fearmongering.
Were children raping in the past
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/kids-getting-away-with-serious-crimes-including-rape-and-arson/story-fn7x8me2-1226256267191
It was sometimes referred to as bullying in decades past to cover the shame of it all, and protect the innocence. The younger sister of a good friend from University, whom I met up with some 30 years later (at national championships our kids were involved in) and in chatting she revealed that she was raped at a young age in school by a group and it affected her in such a way she could not stay in a relationship for any length of time.
Yes Bill it occurred, it was hushed up, it was not recorded as crime, if indeed the police were even told. The difference between now and 30-100 years ago is the reporting of such actions. It is a whole lot less covered up, the police are now involved and mandatory reporting means that police and state health and child services are involved in most cases.
If as you asserted that crime is increasing at some 2 times each generation using your figures (massive increase) for 1990-1997 and murder some 2 times in 20 or 30 years, then I would have expected that children raping children would be common. But in reality it is still an exception, the children are now being protected, and perhaps helped a lot more then when it was hushed up and hidden by both parents and doctors 30+ years ago.
Anyhow, if you find a couple of crimes on the increase then the factual figures from crime&ABS show other crimes disappearing.
I will side with official figures produced by the ABS over newspapers or Chinese whispers of subjective, or the scaremongering by politicians/leaders to make the public scared. Politicians at election time used to always claim crime rate was rising/skyrocketing and how they were going to do better than the other party. But even in the last decade or so that dropped off.
BTW sex activity (varying amounts) in primary school was happening when I was at primary school, teachers rarely knew of it, but it was definitely occurring in some form between some of the older children.
Bill, I am sensing that you need to believe that crime is increasing and that morals are degenerating. Why, is it due to your interpretation of scripture? If so then don’t worry consider it the calm before the storm, scripture will be fulfilled.
I am happy for you to keep that opinion, it is your right. But to elevate your opinion over factual figures, reports and Statistics produced by a department that has a mandate to produce unbiased figures/reports. Well that is why I keep pointing out facts and overall crime rates reports.
You have to understand that these statistics and reports produced by the ABS have to have biases removed and there are well researched ways to reduce the bias and ensure that factual reports are produced. Of course its not perfect, but it is so much better than my opinion, your opinion or the subjective remarks/observations made by a very small sample of society.
Yes the crimes rates have not reduced by any massive amount, and I have always said that. Some crimes have dramatically increased (new laws, new tech, or whatever) like say credit card crimes, since credit cards are only a generation or so old. Some sexual related crimes have only existed in more recent times. Some actions are no longer considered crime. The point is that it is trending downwards, which means there will be bumps up and down, which is mentioned in the ABS report on the last 100 years of Australia’s crime rates I referenced earlier.
I guess people like to argue.
I’ll just leave it at this. I think the average person felt safer walking at night 50, 60 years ago, than they do now. I think anyone with kids is more careful now than they were when I was a kid. I think riding a train at night, going out for drinks etc is more dangerous.
Maybe there’s statistically less murder. You may be right.
And you’re probably right about Inala. There are always bad places.
But, I can tell you that there was a time in QLD anyway where people didn’t have to worry about breakins and so locking cars and doors wasn’t such a big thing. They never had car locks, and systems 60 years ago.
Yes, people were sinners back then and things were hushed up. But once upon a time there wasn’t a car stolen a week, you could leave a kid in a car for a few minutes, and if there was a fight, it ended up with both standing , not with one on the ground and 4 men kicking another in the head.
Before Bruce Lee movies came out, I never heard of a man even kicking anyone else.
BUt, I’ll leave it up to you guys. I’ve just never heard any friend, relative man in the street old guy say it’s so much safer now than when they were kids.
But Bones is right. Once again he displays his historical accuracy. Yes indeed, there was probably more chance of being hit by a bullet in April 1915 in Turkey than on Bondi Beach now.
Don’t know what I’d do without these history lessons…..
And bones? On another thread we were talking about poverty. Maybe you’ve come around…? I agree. It was tougher economically on the poor people in the depression than it is now.
Anyway, seems like all the old stories my parents, grandparents told me about where people could walk freely in the old days were lies. And when I was a kid my parents were foolish to not import a car alarm system.
Yep there are a lot more car accidents now then in the 1800s. Must be the gays fault.
Oh if only we could live like in the 1800s. It was Nirvana.
Why stop there.
Oh if only we could live in the 1600s and burn Catholics.
Life was so much better in the good ol days.
Loser Bill said
Bill, a persons perception is no indicator of actual reality – it makes sense that people feel less safe – the NEWSPAPERS tell us all the time how unsafe we are and how much crime is on the increase – and where does the average person get the information regarding the current state of affairs? From the newspapers that where – they are just like most Christians – rather than do the research themselves and read the bible and study it personally – they let a preacher tell them what it says – well these people let media moguls and politicians tell them how bad things are rather than go to places like the ABS or get other information from other reports and surveys which tell us that we are much safer then we once were.
What I am actually surprised about here is the enormous amount of characters being spent on stats.
Personally (and I have not stats for this) I believe that the violence has less to do with gender of the parents and more to do with irresposnsible hetero breeding.
The part of Loser bill’s original post on here that disturbs me the most is his reference “be on the winning side for eternity or have some minor victories on this earth thinking somehow God is impressed”.
To me it is the heart of the matter of the pentecostal attitude: us vs. them in a moral battle royale.
They can smile and offer free coffee all they want, at the end of the day their brotherly love is conditional and when *I* pause for a “WWJD” moment, “love” without conditions is all I get.
What? never in all of hispotry did anoter man kick another man when he was down? You are not serious Bill?
Smirking Cassandra of Greek myth fame that ‘Love’ without conditions is what you get when you read the bible in its entirety and take it as an entire book rather than a manual for prooftexting hate.
BTW I love your name
The words “kick a man when he’s down” come to mind. As children we heard and were taught by parents, others and peer pressure that “you don’t kick a man when he’s down”. TV shows even had it.
Now why would that be made a point of if “man even kicking anyone else” was never heard of?
It occurred in the school yard, in pub brawls, and so on. It was taught not to do it because it was not consider fair and I suspect that the ones teaching it never wanted it happening to them if they were unfortunate enough to be in a fight.
Oh and this was before Bruce Lee was ever heard of and I suspect before he was conceived.
Hate to bring facts into the discussion.
You’re right Greg, fear sells papers and gets the people watching. The general public wish to be forewarned and naturally will listen to news that could affect their safety. The news media, politicians and some religious leaders tap into this fear to promote their own agenda, be it selling advertising, winning an election or keeping the congregation listening or worse, in control.
Greg, maybe it happened in history of course….
What I’m saying is that it was a total rarity. In my Dads day there were queensbury rules.
And no, I saw a guy kick another guy once, but that was seen as being pathetic.
I think I understand though. You guys are from down south. I don’t know what went on or goes on down there. I’m talking about my experience in north of the border, where men are men…
And they also said “never hit a man with glasses”, in the old days, but that doesn’t mean people hit men with glasses all the time.
But that’s my point. Now young people bash old people, people in wheelchairs, men bash women, young people bash up doctors, nurses, and ambos. Never heard of that when I was a kid. If you are saying you did, then if you are living in Sydney, then….what a rathole!
I’m telling you. It’s only been recently that ambos feared getting beaten up in Australia. (or the part of it that I knew).
If what you are saying is honestly true then QLD should close up the borders!!
Murder rates i don’t know about. I still am amazed you think women and kids are safer now that 50 years ago. You think it’s easier being a cop now? Cops call for back up now. And sometimes ambulances don’t go in to places. Your parents remember those times way back?
btw, I don’t think this has anything to do with gays, or gay marriage btw.
I have to laugh at this whole thing it really is a joke. Secular people are the ones saying things have gotten worse over the last 40 years you can hear them via radio, newspapers etcs etc but because a Christian says the same thing Bones, Old dude and Greg will deny deny deny
I will stick with all the secular people who just tell what they have experienced
Loser Bill, I think you’ve been watching too many Mad Max movies mate. Start hoarding your petrol, brother.
Anyone notice how more violent young women are becoming? Gangs of them roaming around at night beating up just one girl?
How about “glassing”? Now that’s a new event to be added to the old-fashioned pub crawl, where, once upon a time, a policeman could throw young kids in goal overnight to teach them a lesson. Worked on my younger brother, when he was very young and very drunk. Now 60 years old, he will never forget, and always appreciates, the lesson it taught him.
Yes, it’s different now.
Glassing, gangs, girl gangs, kicks to the head, rapes, rapes on older women, female cops getting beaten, doctors, nurses, ambos getting assaulted, cops having to call for backup, cops not doing anything, car alarms, having to lock doors even during the day, not being able to have kids in cars even for a minute unattended, cars stolen every week from supermarkets, streets where every house has been broken into, etc etc.
I know people who don’t go out at night. And I think the difference is that in our parents days an adult could tell someone to stop something but now they’d get beat up.
Maybe the ones who think it’s just as safe aren’t women or older weaker men. i’ve never met a woman who thinks society is safer now. Not one.
So Bill the ABS is made up of Christians and not secular people?
No they are made up of a typical cross section of society.
The Crime stats they collect are from police, hospitals, and ???.
The surveys they conduct are across the board, including the “secular” people you claim are universally saying its worse. I do wonder how they survey the only large groups of people that disagree with you. By surveying large groups the fearful and scaremongers cannot control the results, like happens with talkback
Oh well you keep living in fear that society is falling apart.
You hear a very small percentage of the population on talk back and say they represent the majority. You do know what they say about people who call talk back don’t you.
Obviously, Hell is not full up yet, or God would wind everything up right now. Is it not possible He is getting impatient and purposely increasing the amount of evil in the world? Fuck, I know I would.
So lets cheer God on as He bundles increasing numbers of poofs into Hell. Go Margaret!
David
I bet you don’t even have desperate gays chasing you with your looks
Bill, do you wear one of those t-shirts that say “I fuck on the first date”?
My t-shirt says “I am better looking than David”
I take your point, Bill. Modesty forbids me from claiming the title of world’s ugliest homo sapien, but thank you for the kind thoughts.
People who choose pics like that are probably super handsome in real life. Real ugly fat guys have pics of super models.
I might be ugly, SM, but I’m not fat. That’s offensive.
Suggestion to blog owner: automatic deletion of all comments containing the word “fat”.
What about HIV and other deadly sexual diseases. The reason these have increased is due to promiscuity.
I suppose HIV was rampant in 1898
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/woman-shattered-by-hiv-infection-after-unprotected-sex-with-man/story-fn7x8me2-1226257275970
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/2f762f95845417aeca25706c00834efa/455cdc7e9de1185fca2570ec001b1378!OpenDocument
http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/Lookup/E4277318BCD03B96CA25773700169C89
There has been a marked decrease in the number of new HIV cases diagnosed annually over the past decade. The number of HIV cases diagnosed peaked at 2,773 in 1987
And from the second document the annual rate of new infections has hovered around the 1000 mark for the last few years.
One comment in the second document also points to the fact that most is imported in the years 2003-2008. In effect Australia born new cases are at a much reduced rate and the reason for it still at 1000 per year is from non-Australian born people. According to the National Centre in HIV Epidemiology and Clinical Research, the per capita rate of HIV and AIDS diagnosis in Australia from 2003-2007 was at least five times higher among people born in countries in sub-Saharan Africa than among Australian born people.
Bill, the case you quoted happened in 2007 and as such would already be included in statistics supplied by the ABS, and yet ABS demonstrates that overall crime rates are trending downwards. From the above quoted documents we see that HIV/AIDS is not some ever increasing infection rate in Australia. It is a very serious infection, and new infections occur for many reasons including as you say promiscuity.
Love your either/or red herring. And promiscuity was certainly an issue in 1898, as it was in 1798, 1698 and so on. Actually in the late 1800′s promiscuity was so bad that Queen Victoria enacted new rules for her court and petitioned the Government to enact laws (which they did to some extent) to try and curb the problem.
Bill you keep bring up individual serious crimes, where people have suffered greatly and anyone with feelings cannot but be affected. I agree that society is nowhere near perfect and there is much crime. BUT the facts still show there is a trend downwards in the crime rates. You cannot look at a number of crimes and come up with overall figures, and to dismiss the ABS who spent a lot of time and money doing the hard research only suggest to me that you want the urban myth to continue and call facts/truth lies in favour of your personal feelings.
Matgot’s YOUNGER brother is 60? Hey everyone – Margot’s really really old!!!
Yes – really old. Coming up on 64, 1948 produced a mighty fine vintage.
Lance – I am really missing your original writings and church reviews.